I’ve just been given nightly access to a rational combi oven and am looking for advice on settings - am I best doing a 100% steam for 20 minutes @ 230C then dry oven for 20+ minutes or doing a mix of both...help much appreciated
I don't have any Combi experience but I did read the manual. Nice box. Maybe someone who uses a Combi will comment but certainly they will need some more details on what you are baking i.e., baguettes, batards, miche, pan loaves. It is likely that they will each have their own settings.
What are you baking in now and how are you managing steam and bake times, and temperatures for each type of bread?
Even with advice from an experienced user I would be running several test bakes to dial things in.
thanks for that - ive read the manual - all 140 pages! im just doing pain rustiques for the client...they own the kitchen and oven and i go in at night to make them sandwich rolls and bread...id like to do different breads in it but need to get a handle on it.
Im used to using deck ovens with steam injections so with this i figure ill do a 30% moist oven i.e. 70 dry/30 moist (you can adjust to suit which is pretty cool) for the 1st 20 minutes and do a 100% humidifer (theres a special button for it) just before putting bread in and then another 100% humidifer when in. Its what RATIONAL call a steam injection. Its a 4 second burst which is what i do in the deck ovens.
I figured id keep oven moist for 20 minutes and then dry for last 20. I guess im going by experience with deck ovens and pot in oven at home......what i do have to watch is temperature...apparently you need to drop temperature by 10% or so due to heat generated by convection oven....we'll see...thing is experimenting isnt really an option as it has to be right for the following day so im trying to gather as much info as possible...:)
You might have read that I purchased a new Doyon Artisan 3T1. The reason that I bring this up is that it has a glass door and really good interior lighting. Your box has a glass door too.
With my Blodgett deck I would never open the door to check the bread because I was afraid of dumping all the steam I was struggling to develop. With the Doyon I watch the oven spring taking place. I have taken to timing the start and stop times, maybe hold the steam for another minute or two, then dump the steam to begin the finishing process. I am finding that the steam times in my Doyon are at least 30% less than in my Blodgett.
I am hoping that you might be able to run the same experiment - watch the oven spring, determine the end, then dump (or stop) the steam. Maybe that will help you dial things in.
Mutant, I am not familiar with that oven, but I have a combi, and I am familiar with a number of different combi's. You need to be careful about the percentages. IIRC, Gaggenau uses the following numbers, and I think some others have followed, but could be wrong. 0%, means that any vents in the oven are open, and thus any moisture in the baking process is vented out. 30% means that the vents are closed, but no steam is introduced in the chamber, the moisture from the product is kept in the oven - why they decided to use the number 30%, I don't know. From there up, the numbers all mean steam is being introduced, though I am not sure if 50% is half the amount of moisture as 100%, or just some lesser amount. You can verify this by running it at 100% for a little while and note the sounds, then run it at 0% and 30% and see if 30% sounds like the 0%. Many of the high end combi have automatic cycles for bread, and don't tell you what the settings are.
from reading the manual 100% moist heat only goes as far as 130C and dry up to 300C. Im doing a combination of both with moisture at 30% for 20 minutes and dry heat for 20 minutes. They have a humidifer button which does 100% moisture which i press for 4 seconds before opening door and press again for 4 seconds after loading. I tride it last night. rise was okay, crumb alot fluffier and good thin crust. Much better than i did have it. Bread could probably have done with more moist heat - im going to try it tonight.....
i also went on half fan so its a more gentle heat....im doing alot of bread rolls so im really loading up the oven so getting everything in really fast is an issue (its a 6 rack combi). Bottom line is after first experiment im happy...rolls went in for 10 minutes @ 30% moist heat and 10 minutes 100% dry heat with a 4 second 100% humidifier before and after loading.......
From my quick look at the manual, it is like many other combis, it can generate heat either using a conventional electric heating element ( dry heat ) or it can inject steam (moist heat ) or it can go in combi mode, adding dry heat and steam at the same time. When you do steam only, which is similar to a steamer basket over a pan of water, the upper limit is 130 C, because you can't heat steam but so hot, but page 16 says you can add dry heat and steam up to 300C - This site has links to a number of combi instructional manuals and cook books https://sites.google.com/site/combisteamconvectionsteamoven/home/recipes-and-guides
some use different phrases for dry heat and moist heat, but the concepts should be similar - either dry heat, or steam, or some combination.
That’s great I’ll have a look yeah I was thinking that steam only can only physically exist within a narrow temperature parameter I’m going to try Irma on combi with mostly moist and little dry - 70% for 20 min with steam injection and then 30% for 10 (I think 30% means moisture is retained in oven and not extracted and then 0% for final bake - thdnks for all the advice
Good on you MS!
I don't have any Combi experience but I did read the manual. Nice box. Maybe someone who uses a Combi will comment but certainly they will need some more details on what you are baking i.e., baguettes, batards, miche, pan loaves. It is likely that they will each have their own settings.
What are you baking in now and how are you managing steam and bake times, and temperatures for each type of bread?
Even with advice from an experienced user I would be running several test bakes to dial things in.
Best of luck with your new oven.
thanks for that - ive read the manual - all 140 pages! im just doing pain rustiques for the client...they own the kitchen and oven and i go in at night to make them sandwich rolls and bread...id like to do different breads in it but need to get a handle on it.
Im used to using deck ovens with steam injections so with this i figure ill do a 30% moist oven i.e. 70 dry/30 moist (you can adjust to suit which is pretty cool) for the 1st 20 minutes and do a 100% humidifer (theres a special button for it) just before putting bread in and then another 100% humidifer when in. Its what RATIONAL call a steam injection. Its a 4 second burst which is what i do in the deck ovens.
I figured id keep oven moist for 20 minutes and then dry for last 20. I guess im going by experience with deck ovens and pot in oven at home......what i do have to watch is temperature...apparently you need to drop temperature by 10% or so due to heat generated by convection oven....we'll see...thing is experimenting isnt really an option as it has to be right for the following day so im trying to gather as much info as possible...:)
You might have read that I purchased a new Doyon Artisan 3T1. The reason that I bring this up is that it has a glass door and really good interior lighting. Your box has a glass door too.
With my Blodgett deck I would never open the door to check the bread because I was afraid of dumping all the steam I was struggling to develop. With the Doyon I watch the oven spring taking place. I have taken to timing the start and stop times, maybe hold the steam for another minute or two, then dump the steam to begin the finishing process. I am finding that the steam times in my Doyon are at least 30% less than in my Blodgett.
I am hoping that you might be able to run the same experiment - watch the oven spring, determine the end, then dump (or stop) the steam. Maybe that will help you dial things in.
Mutant, I am not familiar with that oven, but I have a combi, and I am familiar with a number of different combi's. You need to be careful about the percentages. IIRC, Gaggenau uses the following numbers, and I think some others have followed, but could be wrong. 0%, means that any vents in the oven are open, and thus any moisture in the baking process is vented out. 30% means that the vents are closed, but no steam is introduced in the chamber, the moisture from the product is kept in the oven - why they decided to use the number 30%, I don't know. From there up, the numbers all mean steam is being introduced, though I am not sure if 50% is half the amount of moisture as 100%, or just some lesser amount. You can verify this by running it at 100% for a little while and note the sounds, then run it at 0% and 30% and see if 30% sounds like the 0%. Many of the high end combi have automatic cycles for bread, and don't tell you what the settings are.
Here is some discussion of settings http://ths.gardenweb.com/discussions/4050171/sourdough-bread-in-miele-combi-steam-oven?n=22 Others have suggested starting at 100% steam and heat, and switching off the steam half way through. I am still playing around with mine.
from reading the manual 100% moist heat only goes as far as 130C and dry up to 300C. Im doing a combination of both with moisture at 30% for 20 minutes and dry heat for 20 minutes. They have a humidifer button which does 100% moisture which i press for 4 seconds before opening door and press again for 4 seconds after loading. I tride it last night. rise was okay, crumb alot fluffier and good thin crust. Much better than i did have it. Bread could probably have done with more moist heat - im going to try it tonight.....
i also went on half fan so its a more gentle heat....im doing alot of bread rolls so im really loading up the oven so getting everything in really fast is an issue (its a 6 rack combi). Bottom line is after first experiment im happy...rolls went in for 10 minutes @ 30% moist heat and 10 minutes 100% dry heat with a 4 second 100% humidifier before and after loading.......
id love to try the100% steam but according to the manual itll drop temperature to 130% max unless im wrong @ https://www.rational-online.com/portalcontent/club/fs4c/media/files/documentation/climaplus_combi/climaplus_combi_en/CPC_englisch.pdf
thanks for the help
From my quick look at the manual, it is like many other combis, it can generate heat either using a conventional electric heating element ( dry heat ) or it can inject steam (moist heat ) or it can go in combi mode, adding dry heat and steam at the same time. When you do steam only, which is similar to a steamer basket over a pan of water, the upper limit is 130 C, because you can't heat steam but so hot, but page 16 says you can add dry heat and steam up to 300C - This site has links to a number of combi instructional manuals and cook books https://sites.google.com/site/combisteamconvectionsteamoven/home/recipes-and-guides
some use different phrases for dry heat and moist heat, but the concepts should be similar - either dry heat, or steam, or some combination.
That’s great I’ll have a look yeah I was thinking that steam only can only physically exist within a narrow temperature parameter I’m going to try Irma on combi with mostly moist and little dry - 70% for 20 min with steam injection and then 30% for 10 (I think 30% means moisture is retained in oven and not extracted and then 0% for final bake - thdnks for all the advice