Rye Soda Bread

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JonNornIron on 6 Jun 2017 at 01:48

Hi there,

I have a whole wheat soda bread recipe I use that gives me good results. I decided to try replacing the whole wheat with whole rye. I also replaced the buttermilk with stout and a little vinegar.

So far so good, the loaf rose beautifully then 10 minutes in sunk like the titanic! I left it to finish cooking so I could still taste it.  The flavour is spot on. Not too dense, nice crumb, nice and moist.

What happened, I thought quick breads work well with low gluten grain?

Would adding vital wheat gluten make any difference?

Any thoughts or tip would be great, thanks heaps.

might help.  "So far so good, the loaf rose beautifully then 10 minutes in sunk like the titanic!"

In the oven?  In the ocean? On the countertop?  What were your proofing times & temps and at what temperature?

Did you preheat the oven or start out about 150°C and then raise it as the bread rose?

Rye has its own will and more than likely over-proofed.  More details would help.  Could also be too much rising action tearing the delicate matrix apart.  Slow down the rise if you can.  Lowering room temperature or chilling only makes rye dough stiff.  It likes temperatures about 2°C higher than wheat in order to expand.  Also likes over 80% hydration (include the vinegar & stout in the calculations.)

If you have a little spelt, toss some in and that might give the dough more stretching power without ripping.  try about 30 to 40% spelt instead of 100% rye.   Don't know about the vital gluten, don't use the stuff.

Mini

Hi Mini Oven,

Thanks, it's a soda bread so it doesn't need to prove. I baked at 220C for 40 minutes then 200C for a further 20 minutes in a pre heated oven.

I used 425g rye flour to 550ml stout, vinegar mix. Sorry not sure how to work out hydration %

I could cut down a little on the bicarbonate of soda to slow the rise if you think that would help?

It rose in the oven initially then sank shortly after.

I only noticed the vital wheat gluten in a commercial recipe for Irish soda bread so was thinking this might help 'hold' the rise as such

Basics:  :)   Take the water weight and divide by the flour weight and multiply by 100 to get %.  

550/425 = 1.294   x 100=  129 % hydration    

Egg yolks? No. they are fat.  

I sort of skip by the business of the whites and drop them into my water container adding water up to the weight required.  Then yes on the whites.  

But the hydration in your recipe is 129.41%

How about going for 90-100% hydration?

Your recipe will make a very wet batter. Adjusting it to 90-100% will still be very wet but more of a stiff batter. Might hold itself better.

I make sourdough rye at this hydration.

And because it doesn't have much gluten and what it does have is weak then try and not put it too much soda. It could be bursting out too much instead of just rising. Further exasperated by the overly high hydration.

From reading Clazar's comments too I do agree that changing one thing at a time helps narrow down the problem. Try the hydration first and see if that helps. Then further adjust if you think necessary. 

And a long time ago I went through a period kept trying rye and spelt soda breads like in Mini's idea. They were very tasty indeed. 

I look forward to seeing results. 

Rye does not form the gluten matrix like wheatflour to trap gas bubbles whether they are from yeast or chemical leavening like acid/bicarb mix. It forms a dough that is gel-like and in the case of soda bread should be mixed and baked immediately. It may work better to use double acting baking powder as the heat will activate it and give it an extra lift in the oven. That is why many recipes have a combination of baking soda and baking powder in the recipe. It is certainly a good candidate for a soda bread.

You can certainly use vital wheat gluten but the texture will be much chewier. VWG is a tool from my baking toolbox I rarely use as I can usually achieve what I want without the tradeoffs of VWG.

Mini is a rye expert here and has given good advice that still applies whether it is yeast or chemically leavened bread. Rye cannot hold the bubbles and needs to be prevented from releasing the bubbles in some way. Chilling the dough and baking so that it rises and sets fairly quickly before it can collapse.

She also advised to try adding spelt and I certainly concur to use this instead of VWG. Spelt is an ancient wheat that has a delicate gluten complex that would really complement the rye. It can be easily overworked when kneading so lends well to a handmixed soda loaf. It would probably help trap the bubbles and loft the loaf.

Or just add a little all-purpose flour. This certainly looks like a delicious experiment and I look forward to followup posts and pictures of crust and crumb.

Edit: Concur with Lechem that less hydration=stiffer dough=better gas entrapment. Might be the only thing needed.

Hi Clazar123,

Thanks very much for all the tips:)

I'm going to start lowering the hydration to 100% and removing some baking soda and see how that goes.

When you say chilling the dough do you mean cook straight from fridge? Make the dough first, then chill, then add soda and bake?

I really like the taste of the 100% rye, though saying that I haven't tasted it with the addition of spelt. If the first few things don't work I will move forward with spelt.

Time for loaf 1.1

 

totally different from gluten,  What strengthens the gel and keeps amylase enzymes from destroying the rye crumb is acid.  That is why most rye breads are made with sourdough.  I  you case you would do much better keeping the acidic buttermilk instead of replacing it with beer.  I think keeping the vinegar is OK but replace the half the buttermilk with beer and all should be well.  I would also keep 20% whole grain wheat flour too making an 80% all rye bread.

Thanks Dabrownman,

My 2nd attempt with 100% hydration just came out of the oven. Compared to the first one, this one has not sunk completely but instead is nearly level with only a slight dip on the top of the loaf.

This might be a stupid question but what is the difference between using buttermilk and acidified beer?

one tastes better mixed with sparkling water.  :)

Maybe it is still too wet.  Try 85% to 90% hydration.  A lot may depend on your type of rye.  Try putting everything in except the sods, let the rye flour fully hydrate and give a short stir before adding the soda.  Stir using a folding rolling motion with the spatula.  

Okay cool, give me a few days to eat this one and I'll drop down to 90% hydration.

Fingers crossed!

80% rye, 20% spelt

I think that would be a nice mix. Unless you want 100% rye that is.

p.s. actually if you do that then you can drop the hydration further.

However much rye you put it in use 90% hydration.

And however much spelt you put in use 70% hydration.

e.g.

500g flour (400g rye, 100g spelt)

Use 360g water for the rye + 70g water for the spelt

Final amount of water = 430g

Final hydration 86%

That's how I work out hydration for mixed flour breads. Find a good hydration for each flour etc...

Thanks Lechem,

90% hydration for rye

70% hydration for spelt

what would whole wheat be? And how do you work this out, just by trial and error?

Okay, I actually bought some whole spelt flour yesterday. I would like to try and achieve a 100% rye first, so if number 3 does not work I'll add 20-30% spelt.

I wanted to try the spelt flour to see how it worked and made a 40% spelt 60% rye with 100% hydration. It worked pretty well. I also added a tsp of fennel pollen which worked great.  I'll get back to the 100% rye soda next week:)

Rye spelt

 

I make salami and had some fennel pollen left over from my last sausage making day.  I read that caraway seeds and fennel seeds are sometimes added to rye bread so thought why not!

I added 1/2tsp to the bread and it was great. A little goes a long way.

There will always be a range for hydration and you need to find a range you're comfortable with and like.

I have found, through trial and error, my preferred hydration for the flour I use.

For whole-wheat I like to do the 80% hydration range. Whole Spelt needs less water and tend to do 70-75% hydration.