iI'm a newbie. I learned to make bread at my mother'sknee when I was a little girl and kneading was the most central part of th experience.. bread machines took over the task, as did stand mixers and the like,. I recently got the Forkish book FWSY where there is no kneading, only a couple stretch and folds which last 30 seconds each --nothing approaching 10 min of kneading or 12 min with the mixer. How can this work? I'm scared to try it,. Does having a super long bulk fermentation reallly work? It must because there are whole books about iIt
more specifically how does long fermentation work the glutin in the same way as kneading does...
coolchinchilla
Forkish's book is what got me started. I never dreamed I could make bread like I do because I never got the knack of kneading. So the stretch and fold method is perfect for me. Try it, you'll like it!
PS. Love your user mane. We have 3 chinchillas as pets in addition to a number of other 4 legged or finned creatures.
You can't knead the high hydration doughs you need to get a good crumb.
Gluten will form more quickly if you knead the dough actively. Once the gluten is fully formed it will begin to break down over time and at a certain point no longer support the rising of the dough.
Most folks around this forum are striving for the stronger flavors, airy and open crumb (air holes bubbles) and a thicker dark crust. Allowing the leavening agents like yeast or sourdough time to convert the starches into color and flavor can take several hours. If we started with a very active knead then waited hours for the flavor and color, the gluten would be long past its ideal state.
As a wise person on this forum recently reminded us, "It's all relative". The challenge of the artisan-style breads is getting everything to finish development at the same time i.e., color, flavor, gas, sugar development and gluten structure. When everything comes together correctly you get results like the pictures you see on this site.
Like you I was taught to beat the hell out of the dough and get it into the oven in about 2 hours. This usually results in a white, tight crumb with a thin crust and very little flavor. If that is what you seek then continue the process. There is nothing wrong with a white sandwich loaf. The deeper, darker artisan bread takes time, patience and practice.
Jim
If you want to knead, go for it. If you want to use yeast, go for it. The bottom line is to make decent bread that has flavor and texture.
Everyone has a different way of doing things. Find the routine that fits you and the way you live.
I've been baking two loaves every 10 days for over 10 years now. The no-knead version started me on this path but I soon developed a routine that suits my habits. Instead of yeast, sourdough starter is my preferred leavening; instead of no-knead, I like to feel the ingredients change into bread by kneading; instead of free-form boule, I bake my bread in cast-iron loaf pans. I combine whole wheat and all purpose flour in different combinations, depending on my whim. I always knead in a combination of flax, oat bran, wheat bran, and wheat germ before forming the loaves and setting them to rise.
I haven't bought a commercial loaf in over a decade.
has changed over the last 40 years when I started making bread. It seems for centuries people kneaded bread the old fashioned way. I get a kick out of those youtube old Italian ladies punching the dough in the trough for what seems like forever. Little did they know that all you have to do is get flour wet, mix it just a bit and the gluten will form all on its own because that is what it does when flour gets wet. Science has taught us much of what we do today when it cones to bread. Now we know what the wee beasties are really doing and what all of those 30 proteins and enzymes in flour are up to. Knowing what they are, what they do and how and when they do it make for better processes that make for better bread ... much better bread really.
Less physical and mechanical mixing, down to nearly none at all with No Knead recipes, was one result. Old fashioned kneading does speed up gluten formation quite a bit but to what end? Faster is not better when it comes to bread. Slow means better flavor is being developed so there is no need to speed up gluten development in dough at all if it is just going to sit there developing flavor slowly. Now we control temperatures, hydration, flour combinations and additives in various ways at different times to bring out specific flavor profiles and toi improve the bread one way or another. Bread making is really just a pile of science knowledge and tools used to construct a loaf of bread....usually as slowly as possible. This process can be easily modified to make the bread you like, in the amount of time you have at hand to make it by just changing a few variables.
We now live in the golden age of bread making, especially when it comes to sprouted grains, sourdough and yeast water which are some of the oldest bread types known. But this is still the cutting edge for them - right now. The quality of the bread we make today shows how sophisticated we are with our ingredients, processes, methods and techniques. But we aren't done by a long shot.
Just look at how much things have changed in bread making over the last 5 years alone thanks to the TFL for one. Lucy's bread sure is better using a very long retarded, whole grain, No Muss No Fuss starters and building retarded, bran levains for them. Both were developed right here on this amateur, bread baking site makes one wonder what the pros are doing! Don't remember those things 5 years ago and she likely won't be using them 5 years from now but, I bet her bread will be better in the future than it is now......the best is yet to come.
Happy Baking
The pros are probably trying to figure out how to make the favour developed in a 24 + hours process in 2 hours. Bakeries work on 8 to 10 hour shifts and don't usually have the space to allow for these long processes. I guess that is why there will always be room for the artisan bakery as long as there are consumers that appreciate the difference between mass production and small production and willing to pay the extra cost.
Gerhard
It took me a long time trying to figure out why so many pros worked on one day SD bread or added yeast to them. It was because they wanted to get it all done in one days work and make the best bread they could in that time. Who has room for 1,000 loves of bread proofing in the fridge for 24 hours is just one example:-) How can you make 1,000 loaves without a killer commercial mixer? Real long and slow aren't the pro's ticket. They aren't taking 3-5 days to make a loaf of really unique bread like we can and do.
That's why people pay $9 US for a simple loaf of Chad's white SD that costs a buck to make for those of us that do it all the time. There is just enough customers in SF that can afford to pay up big for small production where the labor isn't free, realty expensive and the time required still great;-) I figure we know exactly what the pros are doing because they publish books telling us all about it:-) I'm guessing that low production pros and armatures are coming up with most of the new stuff in bread making and there are a lot hard at it too! It is a great time to be making bread.
Happy baking Gerhard
everyone. Had no idea this would generate so much discussion. I'm inspired to try this out. Of course I'll still do some traditional sandwich bread but I'll have to try the artisan bread in the FWSY book. i'll post my results.
Thanks again.
p.s. Playing with my chinchilla now. :-).