Hey all, first post. I’ve been baking bread for about 6 months. I started out following Jim Lahey’s no-knead method but I read the Tartine Bread book a couple months ago and I’ve been just making the country loaf over and over again—trying to get better technique and understand the variables better.
I’ve had a few failures, mostly due to over proofing. But a fair bit of success. I can get good oven spring, the crust is usually great, and I’m getting better at shaping and scoring.
But I’ve had pretty mixed results with crumb. The photo above was an anomaly*. It's more common for me to get small holes (but not crazy dense) with a smaller amount of oven spring.
I’d been over proofing I think. In the photo above, I adapted it into a pizza dough with 00 flour, olive oil and more salt. I thought it was successful because the salt had retarded it so it didn’t over proof (but perhaps the oil helped?). So I went back to the original ingredients and did a shorter bulk and proof. It ended up with some dense areas and a huge cavity:
For reference the Tartine Country Bread is:
75% hydration
90% all-purpose (I’ve been using King Arthur or Bob’s Red Mill and sometimes bread flour without a noticeable difference)
10% whole wheat
20% leaven
2% salt
My guess was I got cavities was that I hadn’t developed the gluten enough so I went back to my old 4–5 hour bulk with about 6 turns. I then proofed in the fridge overnight and baked after a 1.5 hour bench rest.
It worked better, but still wasn't as successful as I would've liked. The crumb was more varied but the large holes still felt more like small cavities.
Any idea why I might be getting cavities? Current things I want to try:
- Starter activity. It seems super active but I've kept it out of the fridge and done a couple feeds in a row.
- Bread flour over all-purpose.
- Maybe by trying to not over proof it, I’ve ended up under proofing it.
I filmed the whole process of the last bake and put it on YouTube: https://youtu.be/1OaXFQX4Bsk It shows my technique if anyone can be bothered to watch it.
Thanks so much
I didn't have the sound on, but your technique looks fine for this type of dough. In my experience this is pretty much what you can expect from a high hydration, low handling dough. Personally I like my bread a little less open with slightly smaller holes, so I have made changes to include slightly lower hydration (about 72%) and longer mixing (after adding the salt and before stretch & fold). As I said, I didn't have the sound on but it looked like you didn't do much in the way of dough development after the salt was added, other than the stretch & folds at 30 minute intervals. When you manipulate it for at least 10 minutes (maybe more), you'll get stronger structure that is more able to support the rise. At least that's my thinking.
Also, I noticed that your starter didn't float when you put it in the water. Not sure what effect that might have, when you say your starter is 'super active', but it might be a factor.
Reposting this as a reply instead of inline:
I appreciate you taking a look.
That's correct. I've never really kneaded the dough because the Tartine book doesn't say to and I've been just trying to perfect that method. I started another batch tonight and after adding the salt I did about 5--10 minutes of the slap and fold method I've seen in videos. I probably didn't do a great job of it but will see if it makes a difference.
I'm still not great at reading my starter. When I feed it, it usually rises and gets really aerated about 12 hours later then at roughly the 24 hour mark it's fallen and it's much more like a batter. It's certainly active but I'm not sure if there's really an ideal time to be using it. Maybe I should be feeding it in the morning if I want to start in the evening. It floats when it has risen and sinks when it's fallen.
Really nice video Andy! It was easy to follow and very helpful in providing enough information for diagnosing any issues.
I have had some of the same problems with an unpredictable crumb - big holes and tunneling one day, a well-distributed crumb the next, then a dense crumb a day later. For me the remedy came down to perfecting my shaping technique.
If I were trying to work this problem based on your video presentation, I would work harder at gently degassing and redistributing the gas bubbles in the dough before you did your final shaping. You may also want to try different folding methods as you do the final shaping. It was my third attempt at sourcing folding and shaping techniques on the web that brought me to the method I am using now and it has been quite successful.
I'm not convinced it's an over-proofing problem but others here may feel differently.
Your printed formula says "20% leaven" but I thought you said yeast in your video. Are you using a natural levain or did you create a poolish?
Reposting as a reply and deleting the inline comment:
Thanks so much for taking the time to have a proper look.
Do you still happen to have a link to a video of the method you're using? I had a hunch that the large cavities/tunnels might've been dough that didn't combine together properly when I was shaping. I dust the dough very, very lightly before shaping but I thought dusted dough up against dusted dough could cause it.
Yeah I didn't explain that very well. I *was* having over-proofing problems but have since got great oven spring by not over-proofing. After searching this site and reading a bit I got the impression that under-proofing might cause cavities. But that's not my top theory.
Yeah it's natural. In the video I just meant that the natural yeast in the starter can feed on the flour.
I appreciate you guys taking the time to have a look.
That's correct. I've never really kneaded the dough because the Tartine book doesn't say to and I've been just trying to perfect that method. I started another batch tonight and after adding the salt I did about 5--10 minutes of the slap and fold method I've seen in videos. I probably didn't do a great job of it but will see if it makes a difference.
I'm still not great at reading my starter. When I feed it, it usually rises and gets really aerated about 12 hours later then at roughly the 24 hour mark it's fallen and it's much more like a batter. It's certainly active but I'm not sure if there's really an ideal time to be using it. It's been fed two days in a row and tonight when I used it, some of it sunk and some floated, but it was in the battery fallen stage. Maybe I should be feeding it in the morning if I want to start in the evening.
Do you still happen to have a link to a video of the method you're using? I had a hunch that the large cavities/tunnels might've been dough that didn't combine together properly when I was shaping. I dust the dough very, very lightly before shaping but I thought dusted dough up against dusted dough could cause it.
Yeah I didn't explain that very well. I *was* having over-proofing problems but have since got great oven spring by not over-proofing. After searching this site and reading a bit I got the impression that under-proofing might cause cavities. But that's not my top theory.
Yeah it's natural. In the video I just meant that the natural yeast in the starter can feed on the flour.
Thanks again
Realized I could reply to comments so this is a dupe because I can't work out how to delete it.
There are many aspects that take relation with crumb cavities: the quantity of water in the dough, the mixing technique, mostly the way you stretch and fold the dough during the bulk fermentation, the way you shape, the way you proof you loaf, and finally, the way you place your fermented load in the oven.
show up is because of the way the dough was preshaped and shaped and nothing more. People are so concerned tht their rough handling of the dough will somehow hurt the holes in the crumb they are too gentle with it when shaping. You want to make sue that you get all the large air pocket out of the dough when shaping and preshaping. Some people skip the preshape thinking it will degass the dough too much too after it is shaped 10 minutes later. If you don't get the big air pockets out you get weird big holes in the crumb as a result. I think it is that simple.
Happy Tartine baking
and this is what happened too but that loaf was undermixed and underfermented too. Maybe it's just your pre-shaping and shaping technique too.
Thanks all, sounds like—apart from some other good suggestions to try—that the general consensus is shaping technique. I just shaped my next batch, using more of a fold-inward technique and I was a reasonable amount rougher with the dough, trying to make sure I got out any big bubbles. Will see how it goes and report back.
A little dense in the middle but no cavities. This was a combination of slapping and folding, and a new shaping technique.
With the batch I have going now the only variable I'll change will be the shaping technique to isolate it.
This was probably a little over-proofed too, so a little less proofing might support some more oven spring.
I'd be please with that bread if I had made it. The crust layer is gorgeous. I'll bet it's pretty flavorful too.
Why no slap/stretch and folds? It's mostly about gluten development and getting a little oxygen into the dough.
Now the trick is to see if you can do it again... and again...
Thank you. It tasted great—the crumb texture is much nicer to eat.
I didn't do the slap and folds because I tried that in the other batch and I wanted to see if there was much of a difference with and without. I did seven turns and I'd got great results previously without ever slapping and folding. So after reading all the suggestions the most likely cause of the problem was shaping technique or starter activity.
This time I also retarded during both bulk and proofing. So that could've contributed as well. But I'll keep at the new shaping technique and see how I go with repeatability.
Thanks again