Hi ... stupid sounding question of the day..
I'm looking to practice, and become MUCH better at, shaping batards that can have a great bloom when placed on a ceramic stone in my oven. I'm fairly comfortable with boules (although they're aren't always great, but as I cook them in a dutch oven, many of my boule shaping mistakes get masked by the DO helping with shape and give me more or less a fair rise given the environment the bread is baking in. Trying to shape a batard has been less than successful in that many of the dough's I'm using are wetter and I'm not able to shape them tight enough yet, and scoring is another issue. They generally are flatter (and yes, I'm careful about over proofing)..
So with that, what would you use as a basic (perhaps drier) bread recipe to use as a go to practice bread to help improve my batard shaping. I know that this sounds dumb even to me as I write it - after all why not use any bread - but I'm thinking a drier bread might make the process easier..
Thoughts ? Many thanks.. bread1965
PS. Yes, I've seen the many really great batard shaping videos online. But it seems that many of the breads they use are drier (ie : less sticky/ tacky when working with them).
and then drop the hydration down a few percent. There are a few breads that I make where they work as a D.O. boule but are a bit too wet to make as batards or baguettes. For example, the Forkish Field Blend #2 is a 78% hydration D.O. boule dough that works just dandy as 75% hydration baguette or batard. There are others too where I've had success doing just that.
As far as tackiness, I wear latex gloves, and will also wet my hands. I'm not a fan of extra raw flour, so moistened bench and hands along the way helps. The exception is during final shaping where I want to work the dough without any water, but I will toss the thinnest possible layer of flour on the bench to facilitate the movement of the dough on it without the dough sliding.
Don't sacrifice the breads that you already love just because they are too wet in another format. Give my idea a try and see whether that will help.
Because I've tried to shape a boule on some of Forkish's recipes and made a mess. But as I read your message I thought - does a dusting of flour on the surface or on the bench really make that much of a difference to the final baked bread? I wonder how much of it is urban legend that we mustn't add flour to are breads when shaping.. ??
Hi, bread1965!
You know, I'm willing to bet that shaping isn't the problem to get the bloom you're looking for. It important, yes, but I think dough development might be worth exploring.
I know you're careful about over-proofing so we know you have enough "oomph" left for oven spring, right? I just think the gas isn't being trapped in the dough but being allowed to escape. What's your crumb look like?
Otherwise, when shaping, you want a taut surface of well-developed gluten. And, yes, dusting flour is good. Not "incorporating flour," dusting flour. Brush off excess with a pastry brush. And streettcchh that surface (only) to get it taut.
Use the same dough over and over again until you feel good about it - then go make a real bread.
Murph
Ok. I'll try it this weekend and post a picture of the result.. thanks for the suggestion..
Although it's possible shaping has something to do with it, I tend to agree with Murph here.
I think you're on the right track, by thinking of starting with an easier-to-handle dough. I'd strongly recommend something like a 123 bread (100 grams of 100% hydration starter, 200 grams of water and 300 grams of flour), using about 75 grams of whole wheat as part of the flour. Add 6 grams of salt and work the dough (with a mixer or by hand) until it is strong, smooth and stretchy. This dough ends up to be 71% hydration and is quite nice to handle and shape. 68% is even nicer (so 165 grams of 100% hydration starter, 312 grams of water and 500 grams of flour)!
There's no point in trying to shape a 75% or 78% hydration dough when you are not comfortable with it, whether you use flour, gloves, a wet counter or a bench scraper. Start with something easier; one step at a time!
I hadn't ever come across the idea of 123 bread but it's such a good simple way to think of a basic recipe. i'll give it try and let you know. But it opens up the question on the other end of the spectrum - what's the most hydration you think a top end baker can shape into an oval, or batard, type loaf? Just curious.. and thanks again!
If you google Tartine bread shaping on Youtube I think you'll see Chad Robertson and others easily shaping 85% hydration breads into boules. However, be careful with associating "top end bakers" with high hydration breads. A top end baker is one who makes very good bread that suits the needs and desires of the people who eat it. Someone who makes excellent bread is a top end baker whether they use 85% hydration or 68% hydration dough!
Great point.. my reference point is (or should be) skill level rather than 'greatness'.. not to invoke trump.. nor to think they are 'exceptional' .. and thereby invoke hillary.. ! :) Ok.. lets move on, and not start that thread! :)
I give profound thanks every day that I live in Canada... :)
LL - thank you for the 123 suggestion. I gave it a go today. It made a world of difference to shape a batard with a drier dough. I barely used flour to shape, I barely had flour on my hands, the dough was tacky but very workable, I've been using WAY too much flour when shaping (admittedly they've been much wetter dough's). I could easily shape the batard, I learned (because I thought to check and googled) that I should put the seam side up when placing the batard in the basket (who knew?!!! I've made so many forkish breads I just assumed all breads go seam side down - now I know!), and I scored. I also learned that I should be scoring deeper than I thought I should - hence the partial bloom as I didn't score deep enough for the full length of the batard. The size of the loaf was a bit too small for me, and truthfully the flavour was less than interesting. I baked it at 475, then 425 for a total of about 25 degres - it got the temp up to 205 degrees, but next time I'd bake it a bit more as the crust was a bit soft after it cooled and the crumb was a bit wetter than I like. But a good simple dough to practice technique with. Great and thanks!! I'll try a few more times and get it down properly, and then try it with tartine! Thank you!
newbies who want to perfect the craft of bread making. Then you can move up to 75%, rather than start there and give up. Proofing to 90% for white breads and 85 % for whole grain ones is the key to good spring and bloom.
I can see why you'd be happy with that one! Now for a couple of other details to try:
Have fun!
There's always something to learn.. I appreciate the advice.. !
Ok.. so this weekend I decided to continue the practice of creating a bartard with a good oven spring. I decided to make the bread a bit more interesting and had some sesame seeds on hand (unfortunately without hulls) and decided to make a variation on the Tartine sesame seed bread with a 123 dough. I wanted the loaf to be a bit bigger than last week so I used 150g levain, 300g water, 450g flour (400g bread unbleached white, 50g whole wheat), 9g sea salt, 1/3 cup (I know I should have weighed) sesame seeds toasted and incorporated in during the first stretch and fold. I followed the tartine method - all pretty standard.
I'd say the dough rose by at least 30% during the stretch/folds. I shaped the boule, left it for half an hour and then shaped a batard. The dough was a bit more slack than last time. So it didn't feel as tight/taught a shaping as last week's above. I got it into the basket, covered it with a shower-cap and left it a counter in the basement (cooler) for a final rise. Three hours later I'd say it was just about twice as large - maybe closer to 80%. I decided to bake. I scored deeper than last week to avoid the partial bloom I had last week. Instead of steaming the oven, I decided to place a stainless steel bowl over my stone (pizza) and baked for 20 minutes at 450 with it on, 25 minutes with the steel bowl.
When I lifted the steel bowl off the dough I was disappointed by the rise. I wanted it more to be "football shaped" if that makes and sense. I didn't get a bloom and I'm not sure why. I didn't think I over-proofed it. But wonder if using a stainless steel bowl to cover the loaf in the first 20 was a mistake. Maybe because it's so thin (ie: not cast iron) it kept the moisture in the space surrounding the loaf, but maybe the bowl itself lost a lot of heat during the process of loading the dough into the oven?
Otherwise, in every other aspect I loved the bread. The crumb was so soft and fluffy. Tender, flavorful and not too moist, but not dry. It really is a wonderful bread. We had it with dinner (out of the oven 90 minutes earlier - I know that's not a lot of time), and as it was so good, I ended up toasting a piece and had it with peanut butter - ridiculous!
So on the positive side, I created a really great bread! But, I've yet to master the batard bloom. All advice welcome.
Many thanks, bake happy! bread1965
I don't think you've got anything to be disappointed with, really. This is a gorgeous loaf! I think maybe I'm not clear on what you mean by 'bloom'. This term is used in different ways. It can mean the same as 'proofing' (the final rise of the dough), or how the slash opens in the oven, or (and I think this is the most accurate) it refers to the lovely brown colours that the crust takes on during baking.
I think you're probably referring in this post to how the crust opens along the slash. Yours has opened beautifully, really, showing that there was good spring in the oven. Often a rounded loaf, especially one that has a deep vertical slash in it, will burst like this, and it's a good thing! If it is 'ears' or 'la grigne' that you are after, then try holding your blade at a 45 degree angle (or even more shallow) to the dough surface and scoring no more than about 1/4" deep. This will give a different kind of burst to the loaf.
Fair comments all around. And as I thought about the bread some more, and ate more of it, agree. It turned out to be a pretty good bread - better than good in fact. But your comments made me reflect on my reaction. As I thought about it, I think it's that this last bake didn't have ears (which I've yet to truly figure out but intellectually know what to do, just haven't been able to 'get it'). Also, that it didn't bloom in a more pronounced way - meaning like the first batard above that I baked where it 'burst'.. I have an image in my mind of loaves that have ears and a nice bloom in the middle.. admittedly not as much as that first loaf did (given I didn't let it rise long enough). But where's the sweet spot? I wonder if I let the second rise go for only say 2 hours, instead of 3, if I would have gotten that kind of a burst/bloom. Is it more about how you score the bread, or how far along you let it run through it's second rise?Or is it my shaping? Maybe I should have reduced the first rise, shaped the batard tighter, then let the second rise run a bit longer - and that tension created while shaping would have helped the upward bloom/burst a bit more.. Lots of questions, I know..
But you're right and I'm very happy with that bread! But there's more I can do to improve the shaping..
Thanks for the help! Bake happy.. bread1965!