Hi, gang!
Once upon a time, dabrownman spake thus: "You can prove this to yourself. Make a 20% levain dough at 75% hydration..."
http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/39876/high-hydration-nightmare
It was a rudimentary formula and the first time after a month or so of lurking that my brain didn't hurt. It wasn't a foreign language. I understood it instinctively! It felt so good. I'll never forget that feeling. It could have been any post but that was the "aha" for me.
Anyway, I baked an 800 gram loaf after aging an NMNF for a couple of weeks as I screwed around making bricks for a month or so while learning. It "looked" awesome but for some minor imperfections... and tasted like cardboard to me.
I built a 50/50 WW/AP dough per dabrownman's NMNF levain build on the 11-22-44 line and his once-upon-a-time 20% levain, 75% hydration rudimentary formula. Again, feeling pretty smug thinking I learned something.
Great holes, acceptable rise. Cardboard to me, amazing to my wife's friends at work who showered her with praise and even a jar of honey from a backyard hive. It did taste better a couple of days older.
After much reading, I can't find much beyond 30 minutes to 30 hours of autolyse to get a more complex flavor of buttery, creamy, maybe nutty with some sweetness to a basic flour, water, salt, and yeast formula. Everything here seems to want to highlight sour which is nice, but I want more.
Is that about it for FWSY? Do I need to go different flours? Different grains? Mill my own? Can you point me to your "aha?" Perhaps your first really cool beginner loaf? I'm thinking like a French baguette - open, soft, slightly salty crumb with a buttery mouth-feel and a hint of sour.
Is this something more like I have to keep trying for years and years or does anyone have some sage advise?
Murph
I add diastatic malt powder (weight depending on weight of dough) and 20g bread spices per loaf to my mix and autolyse for 1 hour.
Coming from Austria originally (now living in Australia), I have to have aroma and taste in my sourdough bread, and this is how I do it.
Ingrid
Thanks, Ingrid!
I think I've been chasing a dream that complex flavors can be had from simple all-purpose flour. It seems that adding things to increase the flavor is in my future. Yummy!
I'm excited by the thought of new frontiers!
Have fun!
Murph
and get you dream bread, no worries!
It sounds like what you want is a mildly sour pain au levain with a prevalence of lactic acid (that creamy, mellow sour) over acetic acid (that sharp, tangy sour).
I think you could probably get that out of some of the FWSY formulas with time and temperature tweaking, but I know of two formulas that are tried and true as written and produce that style of bread. One is the "Pain au Levain" in Hamelman's Bread. This is a wonderful, authentic French-style mostly white sourdough. I love it for what it is, even though I personally prefer more tang and more whole grain. The other formula is from the San Francisco Baking Institute. It uses a liquid levain that is fed twice at 12 hour intervals before mixing in the final dough. This formula is not published but is taught to students in the SFBI sourdough baking workshop. It produces a very similar bread to the Hamelman Pain au Levain. I may have posted that formula some years ago. I'll look.
I believe very strongly that, when you have a formula that already does what you want (or close to it), you should use it. Once you have mastered it, then tweak if you think you can make it even closer to what you want.
David
Here is a link to my write-up of the bread mentioned above, which includes the formula and instructions:
Sourdough Bread from SFBI Artisan II
Enjoy!
David
David, thank you! Thank you very much!
I think you know I'm new. I have my starter down, am finally wrapping my head around formulas, times, temperatures, "feel" and "look." Nothing masterful but comfortable enough to have handled a 75% hydration without throwing myself out the window.
I so appreciate you pointing me to your write-up so I can work toward what I'm looking for while I practice. I ardently follow you and so many of the veterans here, past and present. I read TFL like the kids read Facebook. :) I used to follow the news but now I follow TFL (even as our world blows up around us these days). It's so much more productive.
Thank you again, David, and everyone here at TFL.
Yours,
Murph
Have you tried khorason (Kamut) flour as part of the flour? It has a beautiful fresh wheaty taste. Combined with a fresh young levain it might give you something you're looking for.
One of the yummiest breads I make that many of my customers love is a simple bread made with an ale & yeast poolish (equal amounts of homemade or bottle-conditioned ale and bread flour, with a tiny bit of yeast). Hydration is around 70% and I change up the flour blend sometimes, but I could just eat the whole loaf once I get started. Poolish is about 30% of the flour weight.
Hi, Lazy Loafer!
Gee, I've never heard of that flour. My local supermarket seems to carry a pretty extensive selection of Bob's Red Mill (50-70 varieties) that has me scratching my head, wondering what anyone would want that stuff for.
I'm going to work David's SD from SFBI Artisan class after finishing my rudimentary 20% levain, 75% hydration AP loaf. I'll run a few of his to see what happens and then start mixing in different flours once I nail a crumb and texture that I like.
All I know is AP and WW. Someone suggested diastatic malt. Can I just grab a bag of something exotic-sounding and pour in 50% and still expect acceptable results? My guess is try it, right?
How did you more experienced bakers progress beyond where I am? David has taken classes but he did something that he liked before going to that next, more polished level. Dabrownman discovered a Krups coffee grinder for milling flour. I'm wondering want the baby steps were after AP and WW. What were yours?
I'm glad this isn't an expensive hobby! :)
Having fun!
Murph
Khorason is an ancient strain of wheat. It's been trademarked as Kamut and the quality is controlled by the trademark owner. The taste is very nice; kind of a fresh cereal taste and smell.
I'm the type that gets into baking books, so I have tried all kinds of recipes by all kinds of bakers - Peter Reinhart, Ken Forkish, Richard Bertinet and Chad Robertson among them. As I worked through their books I learned things about different techniques and ingredients, until I felt confident enough to branch out on my own and try different things. I buy small bags of stuff at Bulk Barn to try out different flours, grains etc. so it's not too expensive! Then I bought a hand mill (Wondermill Jr.) and looked around to see what kinds of grains I could find locally and mill myself. Some of my equipment is from the dollar stores and thrift shops; other things are improvised (such as the off-cuts from a place that sells and installs granite counter tops for my baking stones). You can really go as expensive or inexpensive as you want.
And of course there's the Internet, Youtube and places like this site, where I learn constantly. How awesome is that? :) You're right, just try it!