First post on TFL. I'm assuming enough people speak French to understand the "pain" in my username.
I am in the process of planning a small business selling bread and other baked goods at farmers markets. Bagels are very popular here, so I am planning a production with bagels in mind. I can fit 3 dozen bagels into my 2 home ovens, so I am trying to decide what the best mixer would be for 9 pound batches of bagel dough.
I am intrigued by the Assistent / DLX / Etc. I was hoping to hear from someone who has one whether a 9 pound batch of stiff bagel dough would mix well in one of these, as this would probably be the cheapest option.
Other ideas include the Haussler Alpha, and a used Hobart 20 qt, both of which are quite a bit more expensive.
I would also bake german pretzels, sourdough batards, rye breads, etc. I figured the bagel dough would be the greatest challenge for the mixer, so I mentioned it first, but chosing a mixer for these other items would be important too.
Advice greatly appreciated, especially from those who may have baked for markets before, or those who have used one or more of these machines. Thanks very much!
A couple weeks ago a used Assistant mixer was posted not too far away, but the owner wanted a bit much for a used machine. My impression was that it's a step up from a Kitchenaid mixer, but is definitely not designed for a production environment.
My gut reaction is that 9 pounds of really heavy bagel dough is too much for an Assistant mixer, but not owning one I could be off.
For bagels my batch size is roughly 8 pounds and a Hobart (20qt) handles it well. A used Hobart in good shape would likely last you close to a lifetime with the batch size you've listed, but has a greater upfront cost and depending on how hard the previous owner pushed it could have issues.
For my 2 cents getting a stronger mixer and using it under it's maximum capacity will cost less in the long run. Buying a cheaper lower capacity mixer and even if you don't burn it up right away, it just won't last like it would otherwise.
Thanks for the input. Good to know you are having success with a the Hobart 20 qt. How long are you mixing to get good gluten development in the Hobart?
I have been doing a lot of reading today, and I'm starting to think 9# bagel dough batches in the Assistent might be frustrating.
I've also been checking prices on used Hobarts. Getting a used machine shipped freight to my house looks to be over $2,000. I'm now debating whether for that price I would be better with a used Hobart, or getting a small spiral mixer. Something like the Haussler Alpha, or even one of the slightly larger spirals, like the Haussler sp15ka or the 40 qt Avancini, would only be a few hundred dollars more than a used Hobart. From what I've heard about the staying power of Hobarts, I wonder if a used Hobart would outlast a new Haussler Spiral. Anyone have experience with these smaller spiral mixers?
A quick walkthrough of my current system for whole wheat.The night before I bake I mix up (by hand) my soaker and starter and leave them to sit on the counter overnight. At noon I come home and after lunch I add remaining ingredients and mix on 1st speed for 5 minutes. Then transfer the dough to a clean empty 18 litre icecream container. Take the dough back to class with me and let it proof. By about 3-ish I take it to the student lounge and punch it down. By roughly the time I get home around 5 it's done a second rise.
5 minutes seems to work well with one stretch and fold. For awhile after getting the mixer running I was mixing for 10 minutes on first speed and the flavour was suffering. After cutting the mixing time to 6 minutes the gluten was better developed, but with a stretch and fold it put it over the top.
Having said that... When doing a straight dough intense mix (Advanced bread and pastry) for rich white bread, or doughnuts 5 minutes on 1st followed by 5 minutes on second seems to work well.
http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/38343/counter-top-mixer-recommendation
Some relevant info in the ^ thread.
Spiral mixers tend to have fewer parts than a planetary mixer (such as a hobart) and in theory would last a bit longer. Having said that it depends a lot on the workload, design/manufacturing quality of either machine. Etc.
What part of the world is a used Hobart over $2,000?
According to Pleasant Hill, the Assistent is good for up to 10.75 pounds of bread dough, though bagel dough is probably tougher on a machine than bread dough. I have an older Assistent, and while it is a beast, I agree that you would want a bigger machine if you intend to do this commercially. You might want to check webrestaurant, they have many 10 quart and larger countertop planetary mixers http://www.webstaurantstore.com/50067/commercial-stand-mixers.html
I would go with the 20 qt. It doesn't even necessarily have to be a hobart. There are plenty of reputable brand that make pretty good machines that can handle that dough. I saw some 20 qts selling at a going out of business sale for 600-800 bucks but didn't really need one at the time so didn't pull the trigger. Can't really comment on the smaller spirals as I've only worked with larger ones (50 pound flour minimum and larger)...
When I was still lusting after a Hobart I ran into the regional Hobart repair guy in a parking lot. Quite a nice guy. He basically said the same thing as FBC. Used mixers can go for next to nothing if you're in the right place at the right time. The repair person had picked one up for personal use when a local pizzaria shut down. His advice was be patient and from a service perspective Hobart is good, keep your eyes open for other brands.
A commercial mixer/dishwasher/what ever Is expected to work day in day out at full capacity with little to no service until it breaks at which point it's expected to be fixed or replaced at once. Downtime is so expensive that the purchase price usually isn't the selling point.
Consumer level goods are only expected to be used a bit, intermittently and often are sold on low price, low weight, convenience, etc. They work, but are never expected to perform all day every day.
With that in mind even a Berkel mixer (budget model hobart) is still more than enough for most home bakers. The differences (according to the repair guy) Can be little things like welded frame instead of fully cast. Bowls are made of lighter material than the premium brand, etc. Having ended up with a 20qt Globe mixer and 20qt Hobart I can tell you they're close. Either mixer would last me a lifetime, but I decided to use the Hobart for really trivial differences.
I was pricing 20 qt Hobarts at about $2000 by looking at the big auction site. most people wanted $1500 + for them and then freight shipping was about $500.
I suppose the trick would be to find one locally. I actually found a Hobart D300 30qt, single phase in decent shape about an hour from where I live. They are asking $1800.
I'm thinking a lot about that one. I know spiral mixers are supposed to be superior for dough, but many of the spirals I am looking at are only single speed (the 2 speed ones are always 3 phase power), or fairly low capacity, like the Haussler Alpha.
I'm starting to think a multi speed planetary like the D300 may mix the dough as well or better than a single speed spiral. What do you guys think?
Also, "Clearly", I enjoyed reading about your mobile production system. That is dedication! I suppose people have gotten used to seeing you carry around 20 qt batches of dough by now, but that must have caught some attention at first!
I have owned an Assistent for years now, and use it regularly for every mixing need. I haven't found any shortcomings at all.
Low hydration doughs have their own properties that need addressing. The very stiffness does not create any issues with the DLX, but with every mixing method, getting the hydration even through the dough is exacerbated by wheat flour's capacity to form a seal around clumps that leave the inner flour dry. The DLX helps avoid clumping with its open design; you can sift the flour into the bowl while it's running, which helps during humid weather.
Now, back to my heading. My experience with bagels is that even hydration is more of a problem the larger the batch; it is simply more likely to clump and take more time to work it out. That applies to hand mixing, planetary mixers and even, to a lesser extent, the DLX. To keep the mixing time down (I don't like to mix/knead bagels for more than six minutes, total), reduce the batch size. Bagel and pretzel's methods lend themselves to doing this. Mix half or a third and let rest while the other half or thirds mix. When rested, form and refrigerate. Everything is back to even time-wise.
My two ¢'s worth.
gary
I'm usually mixing 15 to 20lbs of bagel dough in our 60qt. I've done a 10lb in my20/30qt Globe and I just felt like it was too much dough. Maybe because it was a Globe and not a Hobart.
Do you feel like 15-20 pounds of bagel dough is getting close to the max for your 60 qt, or is that just the batch size that you choose for your production? According to the Hobart spec sheets, the new Hobart Legacy 30 qt mixers can handle up to 27 pounds of bagel dough, and the 60 qts can do up to 54 pounds. But I didn't know if those numbers held true for the older Hobarts. I am highly considering making a move on an older Hobart 30 quart and would be curious to know your opinion. I would also love to know how these Hobarts handle stiff dough. In other words, are you able to acheive good gluten development in a reasonable amount of time, without overheating or over-oxygenating the dough? Thanks in advance for any guidance you can give on this.