As time goes on, words, society and culture changes

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but is it for the better?

Continued from another thread on what is an autolyse.  There are those that say the exception to flour and water only for an autolys is when the water in the preferment or the levain is so large it doesn’t leave enough water to do an autolyse where the lour will be properly hydrated.

Hammelman is one of the ‘Bread Gods’ of today just as Professor Calvel was in his time – but Calvel invented the term autolyse, not Hammelman and Calvel was pretty specific – flour and water only - no yeast or salt.  There is a term for this Hammelman exception when yeast hits the mix of flour and water - it is called ferment.  In Tuscany when the levain hits the mix it would be called bread dough since many great bakers there don’t use salt in their bread.  It isn’t the first time a Bread God has been confused or just flat wrong.  No worries - it doesn’t make them bad or less godlike 

Chad Robertson doesn’t follow the standard conventions, as established by the BBGA, for hydration calculations when it comes to levains – where he just ignores them.  Ken Forkish calls his last toss for his levain build ‘Spent Fuel” and tosses it in the trash ….and then uses the remainder to make his bread with the left over ‘Spent Fuel’.  Great bakers make mistakes all the time – it doesn’t make them less of Bread God for it 

People change the meaning of words all the time - over all times.  People tend to be more liberal and more tolerant as time goes on and views change because, let’s face it, times were more rigid, disciplined and conservative and meaning of words changed to accommodate, but not always.   Sometimes people are much less tolerant today.   Being older, I can remember when if you were in London and someone came up to you and said ‘Can I pinch a fag’ it meant that they wanted to bum a smoke off of you.  Now if they said it, they would probably be arrested for hate speech and abuse of gay men.

When we were kids, we rode our bikes everywhere and weren’t allowed into the house until the sun was setting – no adult supervision whatsoever other than being told to stay out of trouble.  The other day a poor couple was arrested for child abuse and endangerment and their children taken away from them by the state just for letting them walk to the neighborhood park unescorted.  Letting them ride a bike in dangerous traffic would probably brought attempted murder charges against the parents.  The meaning of child abuse and endangerment has changes dramatically.

Marriage is no longer between a man and a woman as it was for thousands of years.  Then poof, it was redefined to be much more liberal and tolerant.  As libertarian on most things, none of these things bug me at all as long as they don’t affect me and I am not endangered.  Liberalization of marijuana laws - I’m all for it since people need to live with a maximum of personal liberty and freedom and it is none of my business if they aren’t harming me. 

 Autolyse isn’t alone in the bread world for having its meaning changed over time.  For thousands of years, Artisan Bread and Artisan Bakers were well defined – now the word Artisan is totally meaningless and no one can agree to what it means because people changed the meaning to be more liberal, tolerant and inclusive.  Now everyone can be Artisan and so can their bread which means no one really is one or makes it.

The traditional meaning of Artisan Bread was the very best bread, as judged by peer Artisan bakers, that was crafted by hand, without the use of machines and fired in a wood or coal fired oven.  Very simple to know and understand – no exceptions.

The output was limited by how much an Artisan baker could make by hand and how much they could bake in their oven.  It was all small batch production by definition.  But people like to be associated with words like Artisan and they said ‘me too, me too’ I want to be an Artisan baker making Artisan bread….. so they changed the meaning of the words so they could be one making it even it it wasn’t the best bread made in the traditional way.  This is what people do to words and their culture over time.  

It didn’t make any difference that they were no more a Artisan baker making Artisan bread than the Man in the Moon.  They wanted to be included as Artisan so the liberalization of the words to be more inclusive and tolerant ensued.  Now they mean nothing even though there are some really great Artisan bakers making the very best Artisan bread all over the world – just like they did a thousand years ago before the words were made worthless.

Now, the words that distinguished them for being the best at their craft, producing the best product that the craft could muster, was taken away from them by people who weren’t them and could never be them.  But they are still the only Artisan Bakers making Artisan bread out there and some of us remember it and who they are.

So before a gentle rain (water) falling on a field of grain ( rough flour) becomes an autolyse like some people might believe that levain is just flour and water and part of the autolyse remember what the word was created for and why it exists – flour and water only to give the enzymes a head start at breading down the starch in the flour into the sugars that yeast and LAB can eat – later.  When the yeast hits the mix you have fermenting bread dough not an autolyse.

An autolyse can be from 20 minutes, or less, to several hours, even a dozen or more, if you are using all whole grain wheat.  Another way to accomplish the same thing as an autolyse is to soak grain in water for 3-4 hours and then rinse it off and let it sit for 24 hours. This process releases the same enzymes an autolyse would and gives the wee beasties more food to eat just like an autolyse does – but it isn’t one – it is called sprouting

I suppose that since this happens before (pre) the grain is turned into flour and only water was added, this could be called a pre-autolyse just like a small amount of yeast added to a small amount of flour and water is called a pre-ferment when making bread.  There is that ferment word again…. describing what is happening when yeast is added to flour and water.

How long can it be before we change the meaning of words so much we won’t be able to talk to each other without a long list of added qualifiers to make our thoughts clear?  How long can it be before we dumb the world down so much there is no liberty or freedoms for us to enjoy when everything and everyone is all inclusive, tolerant and meaningless?

No worries, it has been going on forever and we still have a few things that distinguish us from each other but the variety of old is long gone and never to be seen again.

Happy Baking 

PS.  It did make my day when David Snyder, one of the best bakers around, made his fine bread in a WFO for the first time and claimed it to be the best tasting bread he has made - even though it was less than perfect.  He has some tweaks to make in temperature and steaming methods to get it just right.  With his talent, if he made his dough by hand - no mixer, he has a chance at becoming a fine Artisan baker the traditional way by baking his bread in a WFO.  Not many can say that…. and have it be true to the real meaning of the word.  I’m guessing he will sort out the WFO issues, mix the dough by hand and become a real Artisan Baker – if only for a day! 

Yea! It;s a grilled; chicken, peppers and onion taco - one of our favorites with corn and flour tortilla, beans, pico, cabbage, home made sauces, 3 cheeses and creama.  Yummy.  

autolyse, the term coined by the chemist Professor Calvel, is the mixing of water and flour and letting it sit for a period of time.  What happens during autolyse is called autolysis.  He was the first person to realize what was going on during this rest phase.  he didn't discover autolyse.  The bread method of letting flour and water rest likely goes back centuries and possibly thousands of years.  What put Calvel onto trying to figure out what what was going during this rest period were French bread recipes that were written down during the late 1200's that said mix flour and water and let rest overnight.  The flour used at that time was high extraction and bakers realized their bread came out much better with this long rest period - Calvel wanted to know the scientific reason why this was so.  The recipes went on to say that the yeast and salt were then added and the mixed and kneaded.  With these long autolyse times, if the yeast  was added at the beginning, the dough would likely be goo in the morning.  Since the French learned their bread making skills from the Romans and Romans and the Romans from the Greeks and the Greeks from the Egyptians, this method of mixing water and flour and letting it rest  could go back to ancient times for all we know since most of the methods we use to make bread by hand go back to those times.. Many Fresh Lofian's like janetcook use these long autolyse periods for their 100% whole grain breads and do too

I didn't say it can't be autolysing if it is fermenting.  The chemical processes of autolysis and ferment can happen at the same time and do all the time when most bread is made -  when all the ingredients are dumped in and mixed to make a bread dough   I said we have two terms and the reason we have 2 terms is to distinguish and separate two different steps in some bread making processes.  One when water and flour are mixed and left to rest for a period of time called autolyse.  Once the yeast hits the mix it is called a ferment.  i think you got confused thinking autolyse and autolysis are the same thing.  Autolyse is a bread making process, mixing flour and water and autolysis in bread making is a chemical and or biological .reaction where enzymes break down proteins to form gluten strands and starches into sugars.

No knead is a process where bread is made without kneading just like autolyse is process of mixing flour and water.  The chemical and biological processes of autolysis and fermenting go on together with salt just like they do in all bread making, except in Tuscany, but no kneading.   Another pet peeve of mine is when some recipes call themselves no knead and call for stretch and folds which is a form of kneading.  I have seen some whole grain NK recipes that call for an autolyse of the flour and water which is fine so long as it isn't kneaded in some way.

So my rain on a filed of grain is a straw man but your comment that a SD starter and levain can be part of the autolyse since technically it is just flour and water isn't one?  We both know there is a lot more than flour and water in a levain and starter,

Calvel discusses whether the salt should be added at the beginning or end of the mixing process in his book.   The confusion arrives in that people use the term mixing for 2 different processes he recommended in his book.  One was the mixing of flour and water for a short time for the autolyse process using a mechanical mixer and the other using the mechanical mixer to mix the dough for an extended period of time to develop the gluten in the dough.  He wanted to determine the best time to add the salt during the extended mixing period  where gluten was developed.  He determined that the best time to add it was at the beginning of the gluten development rather than the end since the gluten strands would be toughened by the salt so it was better to add it at the beginning.  Oddly the more normal process at the time was to put the salt in near the end of the gluten development mixing period,

What confuses people is that some think that Calvel was talking about adding slat at the beginning of the first short mixing period for the autolyse instead of where he was testing it - during the 2nd more extended mixing period of gluten development after autolyse is complete.  Autolyse = no salt

Your "breakdown of all or part of a cell or tissue by self-produced enzymes" is happening, then to be strict about word usage you have to call it autolyse.  No it is called autolysis.  Autplyse is the mixing of flour and water and letting it sit so that autolysis can take place.

Here is a link that discusses what Calvel means by autolyse

http://artisanbreadbaking.com/techniques/autolyse/

Happy Baking 

The reason i wrote the post explaining why people often mistake what Calvel said about when to add the salt s because this link also falls into the same trap.  You have to remember what Calvel was trying to do. He was trying to figure out why the quality of french bread of the early 60's had fallen off so much by the beginning of the early 70's - and how to fix it.  Remember this has to so almost exclusively with commercial yeast bread that was mixed intensively during the gluten development stage.  That is what most bakers made - just like today.

One way he found to fix it was to do a quick mix of flour and water only and let it sit or autolyse.  The other was to when to add the salt.  After the autolyse was the 2nd much longer mix.   In the early 60's french bakers had added the salt near the beginning of the 2nd mix before the bulk if the gluten was developed but by the 70's had switched to preferring to add the salt near the end of the 2nd mix when the gluten had been almost completely developed .  Calvel determined that adding the salt at the end of the 2nd mix was wrong and that it should be added at the beginning if the 2nd mix.  In either case the autolyse was already complete - so no slat in the autolyse.  

I have added salt during the autolyse many times but much refer to just sprinkle it on top soi donlt forget it,  Salt is hydroscopic, sucks up and retains water that is much more more useful for the autolysis going on during the autolyse process and why Calvel didn't include it in the autolyse because he didn't want the salt getting in the way of what was important. 

The bread world has moved on since Calvel's time and way past him.  Bakers have developed various ways to get an even better loaf, incorporating the salt more evenly and uniformly into the dough after autolyse by using variations of the double hydration technique or even triple hydration (one for the salt at the beginning of the 2nd mixing and one when the gluten is developed half way) that results in better overall gluten development, higher proof and bigger holes. Some people are also doing double and even triple levain to bring out other characteristice in a SD bread flavor and looks of the crust and crumb

We make way better bread today than during Calvel's times and methods but his experiments with autolyse have withstood the test of time.

Happy baking

"The other day a poor couple was arrested for child abuse and endangerment and their children taken away from them by the state just for letting them walk to the neighborhood park unescorted."

This is not true.  The incident happened not far from where we live and the children were never taken away from the parents nor were the parents arrested for child abuse.  There is a problem with a local county ordinance and there are lots of us who are very angry about this matter and want to see things changed.

As to the rest of your post, I'll not comment other than to say that language constantly undergoes revision and that while M. Calvel's interpretation is one, the fact that we can generate sourdough starters with just flour and water speaks to the fact that something else can take place.  It's also well known that Jewish kosher law required unleavened bread to be baked within 18 minutes of initial mixing so the ancient rabbis knew something well before M. Calvel

http://www.wusa9.com/story/news/local/silver-spring/2015/04/12/md-free-range-children-taken-by-cps/25691133/

This is actually the 2nd time this has happened to these parents.  The police did take the children away and they were in CPS custody for 3 hours as their parents searched for them.  The parents were accused rather than arrested.  It was reported here that the children were taken away by the police to CPS and the parents arrested after this happened for the 2nd time.  I should have checked further to discern the facts of the matter.   I I'm sure most people would like to see these ordinances change - my point is that not all things get more tolerant and liberal over time.  Child safety is one area where it has become more conservative. bikers having helmets, child safety seats in cars etc -for some reason kids are being punished.. Nothing new there as I personally remember :-)

I don't know of anyone who can generate a SD starter or levain in 18 minutes or 24 hours for that matter - 72 hours is a different story as I recently blogged about based on Hammelman's rye starter method from scratch for dark rye pumpernickel.   

A well known bread bakers forum, in these parts, posts the following definition in its Glossary;

Autolyse: a technique for improving gluten development without heavy kneading. Combine the flour and water from your recipe in a bowl and mix until the flour is fully hydrated. Cover the bowl and let the flour hydrate for 20 minutes, then mix in remaining ingredients. The result is development comparable to a dough that has been kneaded for 5 or 10 minutes with less oxydation (which leads to a yellow crumb).

I know some experienced professional bakers who perform (What they call) autolyse in various fashions and, you know what? They all produce breads of which they are extremely proud and which sell in significant quantities to the trade and general public. So far as I know, none of them care about historical definitions.

Live and let live I say - Unless I'm up in court that is, then the legal eagles can sort it out - They like clear, concise and unambiguous language those boys and girls - Expensive way to get a definition though!!!

Happy autolysing/autolysis (Whichever it is)

Brian

 

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According to northwestsourdough.com, "...even Professor Calvel who pioneered the autolyse for bread making, allows adding levain to the original dough if the levain is very wet or an indispensible portion of the dough", although they don't offer a source for that assertion.

As far as autolyse goes, I would take an instrumental approach. Does whatever you're doing achieve the goals of an autolyse? If you're getting increased enzymatic activity, dough hydration, gluten development, and reduced mixing times, then to me that is an autolyse. Because of salts effects on gluten and enzyme activity, adding salt is counterproductive to those goals, so it doesn't make sense to say you're doing an autolyse. If the levain doesn't significantly impact those goals, then it does make sense.

Calvel does have a footnote for making  naturally leavened sponge that states

“Dough autolysis refers to a rest period that occurs after 5 min of mixing a fraction of the flour and part of the water, excluding the remaining ingredients.”   Sounds like no salt or starter.

This poster also comes to exactly the opposite conclusions of Calvel's 1974 experiments when she states that adding the levain to the autotlyse makes for a better bread in teh end where Calvel states just the opposite.  i would have disregard her findings since my own experiments point to Calvel definitely being right.

Happy  baking 

if you care IMO. If you choose to define autolyse like purists do, then fine. If not, then also fine. Personally, I don't care either way as long as it's clear what exactly you mean when you talk about autolysing, especially in a recipe / process. 

Maybe it would help if someone would come up with another term for flour + water + levain

I agree completely. In the original post I just offered up that "some" believe that the levain included is a good idea (call it autolyse or not)  - that was the question that was asked.  The results are what matter - the real question would be the amount of hydration and autloysis occurs no matter what else is included. That will determine what the final dough will need. [done] :)

in many recipes, my palate isn't good enough that I'd be able to tell the difference. So, while I haven't tried this and don't plan to, if I were to make two otherwise identical loaves where I autolysed for say 20-30 minutes with and without including the levain, how likely is it that I'd be able to taste a difference? And if I can't, then - for me - the difference between the two processes doesn't really matter.

for an autolyse is the one where the levain is so big and liquid that there isn't enough dough liquid to hydration the dough flour properly .  I'm wondering when the hydration level is too low for the dough flour and dough liquid?.  i autolyse white bagel dough at 53% hydration for 2 hours and and 50% whole wheat bagel dough at 58% hydration for at least 4 hours and both work fine.

For a white bread at 72% hydration - my minimum hydration where 500 g of dough flour would be hydrated with 265 g of water (53% hydration like a bagel)) and the levain would contain 200 g of pre-fermented flour that would leave 167 g of water for the levain making it.167%.  So the pre- fermented four would have to be  or way more wet than 167%.  There just aren't that many times when the exception, if there is one, even applies.  If you leave out the salt, this exception would be exactly like making Tuscan bread dough where everything is mixed together from the beginning ans no salt.  i say this exception should be called Tuscan Bread instead!

I'm guessing one thing is for sure, the person that makes the rules isn't the one making the exceptions for them most of the time.

I'm pretty sure that if the 10 Commandments were written today, every one of them would have at least on exception and everyone would go to heaven in the end.....no matter what,,,, without exception :-)

or I have an autolyse process going on in the absence of levain but there are wild yeast cells present in the flour (as there are in all flours unless they are pre-sterilized).  Now over course the sparse population of these yeast cells won't rise dough unless we let it sit around for a considerable period of time which is what we do in creating a starter.  I venture to say that these wild yeast are growing and by definition this is fermentation albeit at a minute scale.  The argument over the term autolyse is specious and IMO unworthy of further discussion.  So as a biochemist, I'll be content to consider that there is some fermentation going on irrespective of whether the process is carried out with or without levain.  The bottom line for me (and it should be for others on this forum) is the quality of the bread that results from our effort.

I'll exit from further discussion on this point.