Seems so obvious, right? I can buy both white and whole rye locally, but I have to send away for the medium rye. Would it be a close approximation to do a 50/50 blend? Or some other percentage?
And what about First Clear? Is there any way to mimic that flour's properties? Do any of you rye bakers out there have a strong opinion about whether hi-gluten flour works as well or tastes as good as the first clear? My palate tells me the first clear tastes more "authentic" - but my family and other tasters say they detect no difference...am I imagining it?
Thanks for any insight -
Cherie
I purchased first clear from King Arthur and my palate couldn't tell the difference. I do, though, use First Patent bread flour I buy in 50 lb bags. I can't tell the difference either between that and grocery store KA bread flour.
As far as rye, I do notice a richer flavor from the KA pumpernickel as opposed to the Hodgsons Rye. I can't findWhite or Medium either. Do you have the Hodgson's available? I'm very happy with that. Hope that helps.
Wendy
You must do a lot of baking! I wonder what the difference is between First patent and first clear? I don't have the Hodgson's rye available, but I can get Bob's Red Mill dark rye and white rye. And I recently found another great source - FarmerGround flours. They're a small(ish) mill located update NY in the Finger Lakes area. Their whole rye flour is very good. I will go back to ordering medium rye, pumpernickel and first clear from nybakers.com - I've been really pleased with the flours.
thanks again,
Cherie
I miss typed...sorry....and is KA's professional bread flour....described here. I get it at Restaurant Depot and keep it in the freezer taking out what I need. I bake twice a week at least....it will last me a couple months and is much more cost effective than buying online or in the grocery store. I was buying the 8 bags from KA online and unless you got discounted or free shipping, the freight alone makes it prohibited IMO.
As far as first clear, from what I've read it has a slight higher protein content and is a bit more coarse. I tried it in rye bread for which its recommended and my unrefined palate couldn't tell.
That's very good to know. I'll just have to wait and order the medium rye again. I've ordered from nybakers.com, and even tho' they're in California, the shipments seem to get here pretty quickly (I'm in NY). I also ordered some coarse rye meal from them to make pumpernickel and I love it! It's even coarser than I'd imagined and gives a wonderful, nutty crunch to the breads.
Your chart of all the different flours was really enlightening. We have a good German provisions store here and I'm wondering if they might carry some hard to find flours.
Cheers,
Cherie
Medium rye if you have the right equipment and know what and how to do it. Being fresh, the flour will be loads better flavor wise than anything you can buy. Otherwise, Karin's sources are the best bet.
It all depends on what Medium Rye means too Texture or color or both?
which I've used for grinding small amounts of sprouted and dried grains (you taught me the whole process for that adventure - thank you!) I do have some whole rye grain in the freezer, I could give it a shot, while I'm waiting for a shipment from nybakers.
The medium rye I'm wanting is medium in color - the texture (I'm remembering the bag I got by mail order) was pretty fine, almost like AP. Maybe I could sift the Arrowhead mills whole rye flour? That seems easier than grinding and sifting - tho' I think you're saying the taste will be fresher if i grind it myself? But you have to use it right away, correct?
Thanks Dab - and by the way, I've been wanting to try my hand at one of your breads - it's the one with and without cranberries and pecans, a scalded multigrain. I've never done a scald....I see the amount of berries you used for the scald, but how much water? And could you please give a brief explanation of the process? I'd really appreciate.
Many thanks,
Cherie
i think you mean, you have picked one of most difficult breads Lucy has ever concocted and that is saying something.
Tang Zhong, Ricotta, Scalded Multigrain with and without, Cranberries & Pecans
This one has just about every method known to bread in it, and I'm not sure I would make the same today since we rarely make the same bread twice.
For this bread the scald was just covering the berries with an inch of water and simmering them for 10 minutes then letting them sit in the excess water in the fridge for 24 hours. They you drain off the excess water the next day and pat the berries with a paper towel to get rid of the surface water on them - so it doesn't matter how much water you start out with since what ever is left is going away so the berries won't affect the hydration of the dough too much. This is one of those great tasting breads that is long and hard to do! Good Luck!
If i was doing this today, i would sprout the berries first then combine them with 20 g of whole flour and 5 g each of red and white malt and 30 g of water and weight the whole mess. The I would do a baked scald for 2 hours at 140 F and top up the weight with water at the end so that it weighed the same as when it started. i would then be able to drop the Tang Zhong and drop the VWG too. It would look more like this more recent one because Lucy is getting more lazy as I get older:-).
Sprouted 3 Grain Sourdough with Pecans, Cranberries and Malts
All you would have to do is get the ricotta in there somehow,......or leave it out too.
Happy baking
It's a good plan for my household to divide the dough and use the cranberries/pecans in only half - since not everybody around here is a fan of nuts and fruits in their bread (what!?)
I realize it's rather involved, but I'm learning a lot by trying all these methods. Plus it extends the "playtime" called baking bread (I stole that quote from RonRay - it's so true ;-))
So, I'll sprout the berries ('cause they taste better, right?) before doing the scald, and omit the VWG - is that because the sprouted berries have increased raising power? But I can't do a baked scald like you describe because my oven's lowest setting is 170. So I'll keep it on the stovetop; and do the tang zhong separately.
One last question about red and white malts - I've got some diastatic malt powder that I made according to the directions here: http://www.weekendbakery.com/posts/making-your-own-diastatic-malt/
I used wheat berries; it looks like whole wheat flour - neither red or white....What's the difference btwn your red and white malts? Do you make them yourself? What's the effect on the dough?
Thanks so much for your help - my breads have gotten so much better in less than one year because of all the awesome and generous bakers (like you) on this site!
Cheers and Happy Birthday to Lucy!
Cherie
make the baked scald. Mine goes down to 150 F ans if I leve the door open the scald doesnlt get over 140 F if stirred every 30 minutes for 2 hours and then topped up with water at the end to make it 100% hydration. That will keep the enzymes active.
I do make my own red and white malts. They are made with barley which has more diastatic power than other grains, They are sprouted for 4-5 day (instead of 18-24 hours like sprouts for bread that are just 'chitted' - the frst rootlets just breaking the surface of the seed skin) Barley is sprouted until the main shoot, not the 3 rootets. grows to be at least the length of the seed itself. I dry the seeds at 105 F in the dehydrator and take half and grind them making white diastatic malt where the enzymes are still active and half I bake after drying and bake them in the toaster oven stating at 200 F and up up the temperature to 325 F gradually over an hour or so. This turns the seeds a darker brown and kills off the enzymes making red non diastatic malt. When the baked berries are ground up the malt powder comes out red. Red malt is coloring and flavoring additive for many breads containing whole grains. I did a couple of posts on making malts before i got my dehydrator. i was making rye malt for bordinskiyand other rye breads.
Making Red Rye Malt
Happy Malt making
All of this information is great. Now I just have to find the right barley. I understand it has to have the hull still on it - from a garden store, or online.
Your post on the red rye malt is really helpful - plus all those comments...fascinating!
Wow, when I made my first sourdough starter last summer I never dreamed I'd be sprouting and grinding and scalding and...who knows what's next!
;-)
First clear flour is milled from the aleurone layer of the wheat berry (it's the 'first clear flour' that comes off after the bran). It's high protein, but it's not necessarily all high-quality gluten, and the ash content is around 0.75%.
I like it for rye and bagels, too, and I mix 90% Sir Galahad (KA A/P) and 10% first clear (to approximate T65 flour) in my baguettes and pain au levain.
I like first clear for rye breads too. I'm out of it right now, so I'll try Karin's approximation until I can get another shipment.
Cheers!
Cherie
Here's a detailed definition of Clear Flour. I find it provides a little spongy quality if that makes any sense.
Clear flour is the by-product of straight flour that remains after patent flour is removed. Clear flour is graded into fancy, first clear, and second clear. Clear flour is darker in color than the other flours previously mentioned, as it is made from the part of the endosperm closest to the bran. Fancy clear flour, milled from soft wheat, is used to make pastry flour. First clear, milled from hard wheat, is often blended by the baker with low-gluten flours to lighten the texture of breads such as rye or whole-wheat yet maintain the deep color desirable in such breads
Yeah, that makes perfect sense. I do prefer the first clear for deli-type rye breads. I wish there was a super flour store locally, where I could buy all these special ingredients!
Cheers
So I guess it's perfect timing to stock up on that medium rye and first clear. Yay!