Hello,
I regularly used to make Laurel's buttermilk sandwich bread recipe using my bread machine to mix the dough.
When the machine broke I started trying to use the stretch and fold technique.
I made about a dozen attempts but the dough never seems to rise. ( I am using the same ingredients as before)
It's now been about 3 months since I made any bread.
I tried varying the yeast I used and the temperatures in case that was the problem.
I tried leaving the dough to rise for short and long periods.
I can't figure out why the dough is hardly rising at all.
The dough does seem to develop after each stretch and fold but it does not rise. It's as if there was no yeast at all.
Any ideas?
the way of the machine to see how this works.
maybe it needs more gluten development
If there's one thing I've learned is that my bread won't rise or spring worth a crap if I am unable to get good gluten development. I am very dubious about the use of "stretch and fold" ... I guess I need to go to a class or something, because even when I follow detailed instructions (for example [url=http://www.weekendbakery.com/posts/our-version-of-tartine-style-bread/]these instructions[/url]) I am simply unable to get enough gluten development to 'make it work.'
Here are a few things I have learned:
1. Autolyse needs warm water. My last 2 bakes I tried a 20 minute autolyse and immediately noticed a difference between the bakes ... the first bake I used cool water (from the fridge filter) and on second bake I used warm water and I noticed an immediate improvement in gluten development.
2. Only use good flour. Now I only use King Arthur Flour ... I use the bread flour, AP flour, and white whole wheat.
3. For a high-hydration dough (my "goto" recipe is about 75%) using only KAF bread flour, it takes 15 minutes of kneading with the Kitchen Aid to get adequate gluten development. My measure of this is oven spring and development of a grigne where I've slashed the dough. I do notice the difference in the dough during shaping as well.
4. For high hydration breads, if you start replacing the bread flour with "other stuff" you'll need to knead longer to get adequate gluten. My most recent bake I used 1 oz corn meal, 1 oz rye, 1 oz sprouted wheat flour, 8 oz AP flour, and 9.25 oz bread flour. I kneaded for 15 minutes and got an OK oven spring but not what I had expected. The next batch I make (probably tomorrow) will be kneaded for 20 minutes.
5. Using a dutch oven (DO) might be a big help. I have 2 baking stones and am pleased with my results so far, but I recently got a copy of FWSY and I am wondering about the possibilities of a DO. More spring and better crust coloration (and hence flavor) are what I'm curious about.
So how will these things help you? I'd speculate that you might want to do an experiment or two. I could envision in one experiment you use 100% WW and start increasing your kneading times until you get something more in line with what you want. Bear in mind, though, that WW won't rise or spring as much as white bread flour due to the bran content. At least that's what they say here.
The other experiment would be to substitute a portion of WW with a high-quality bread flour, and then maybe also experimenting with kneading times.
Good luck.
-Dave
instead of stretch and folds for the first set - 8-10 minutes or so, the gluten will be developed enough to finish it off with stretch and folds over the next 1 1/2 hours - every 30 minutes. Then I'm pretty sure your problems will go away. Stretch and folds work better with SD where you will have hours and hours for the gluten to basically develop itself with a little S&F help. Instant yeast, besides just a pinch, is too fast working not to do some kind of more rigorous gluten development in the beginning.
Zebrasam,
I could really never get straight S&F to work on 100% whole wheat either. Dabrownman is on to something - you can watch videos of Richard Bertinet (or others) doing slap and fold if you need a visual. My kids crack up when I do it because it can look so violent and is noisy to boot.
The other alternative is to find a decent used bread machine at the thrift store for under $10 and keep making bread that way until you work out the precise method by hand. :) Just don't stop baking!
Whole wheat flour contains all of the bran, which acts like tiny knives on the gluten matrix. The act of manipulating whole wheat dough causes microscopic wholes to be punched in the gas cells, which reduces gas retention. Time to start looking for a new bread machine!
Bob
I think that no one mentioned. Bread machines control temperature, so if you are using cold ingredients (lets assume that they are very cold) then the yeast's leavening activity could be severely stunted. I ran into this one so to eliminate temperature I made sure to use very warm (chlorine free) water (I was playing with water in the 80 to 115 degree F range) room temperature yeast and room temperature flour. My next batch rose so well that it looked like "The Blob" was going tot take over my kitchen (yes it baked up just fine), so if all else fails, then consider temperature as a possibility.
in my mind is always key to a sweet tasting bread. Of course lots of resting in bwtween is crucial especially for Whole Grains. I found this new teqchnue for kneading whern its not so harsh as kneading and not too gentle as S and F . I tighten the dough into a ball gently and rock it back and forth as a snake really quickly with rough but gentle hadns and again roll up into a tight ball and repeat the snake. The dough seems to love this massaging action and respnds very well to it getting nice and shiny. The key is to be quick and abrupt wihout putting too much pressure. When your dough gets very stretchy to the point where it makes it hard to form into a tight ball, this is where i see you have worked the gluten to the max and its time to rise a bit baofre baking/bursting
* less yeast (SD) as much as 5% of flour weight and 2 days in fridge will give you heaven in your mouth
Enjoy your WW baking, it the only way to go in my opinion
Ghazi
Have you checked your yeast? If it's old stock, then maybe prove a little just to check it? (or throw it and buy new)
However I've recently started to make (and sell) 100% stoneground wholemeal flour loaves. My technique has been to create a 70% hydration mix, knead it lightly, then let it ferment overnight - using only 0.5% of the normal (instant dried) yeast that I'd normally use.
e.g. a typical mix is 900g flour, 630g water, 12g salt and just 4g of instant dried yeast (I use Bioreal yeast). Mix and knead it (but not that much), then leave it covered overnight (ie. 10pm to about 7am) in a cooler part of the kitchen, then turn it out, divide into 2, shape, prove in bannetons, bake. (250C for 11 mins, then 210C to finish - about another 20-25 mins) I often roll the shaped dough in my own 5-seed mix to give it a crunchy coating before proving.
Seems to make a good loaf that's easy to slice and hold its shape - makes excellent toast too :)
-Gordon
One of the better descriptions that I've seen on how to achieve a light texture in well-risen wholegrain breads was posted here by txfarmer. Perhaps some of her experiences will be useful to you, too.
Paul