This is a new recipe I made from Daniel Leader’s book, Local Breads, for a Parisian loaf of Pierre Nury’s who is a recipient of the prestigious Meilleur Ouvrier de France award, as noted in the book.This is a very rustic light rye considered to be his signature loaf and is compared to Italian ciabatta.
It was very interesting to make and loads of fun although my timeline didn’t quite match Leader’s description of what would take place in the amount of time noted.I have made notes below in the recipe for how this worked for me.
This is delicious bread!I will definitely bake this loaf again.The recipe is so simple I see it as almost a no fail bread.The flavor is very good and I would describe it so far as the most tangy bread I’ve made to date keeping in mind my sourdoughs are very mild.I think it is really an outstanding flavor and toasted it is wonderful with a real depth of flavor.
The crumb is beautiful and very moist and almost spongy.It is very open like a ciabatta which just seemed so odd to me after such a long, overnight rise.
Here is the recipe for those of you who might like to give it a try.
Pierre Nury’s Rustic Light Rye – © Daniel Leader, Local Breads
Makes 2 long free-form loaves (18 ounces/518 grams each)Time:
8 – 12 hours to prepare the levain
20 minutes to mix and rest the dough
10 to 12 minutes to knead
3 to 4 hours to ferment
12 to 24 hours to retard
20 to 30 minutes to bake
Levain:
45 grams - stiff dough levain(45%)
50 grams – water (50%)
95 grams – bread flour, preferably high-gluten (I used KA Sir Lancelot) (95%)
5 grams – stone-ground whole wheat flour (5%)
Prepare levain by kneading and place into a covered container.Let stand at room temperature (70 to 75 degrees F) for 8 to 12 hours until it has risen into a dome and has doubled in volume.*
Bread dough:
400 grams – water (80%)
450 grams – bread flour, preferably high-gluten (I used Sir Lancelot) (90%)
50 grams – fine or medium rye flour (I used KA medium) (10%)
125 grams - levain starter**
10 grams – sea salt (I used kosher)
Mix:
Pour water into bowl of a stand mixer.Add the bread flour and rye flour and stir until it absorbs all of the water and a dough forms.Cover and autolyse for 20 minutes.
Knead:
Add the levain and salt.By machine, mix on medium speed (4 on a Kitchenaid mixer) until it is glossy, smooth and very stretchy for 12 to 14 minutes.***This dough is very sticky and will not clear the sides of the bowl.Give the dough a windowpane test to judge its readiness by gently stretching a golf-ball sized piece until it is thin enough to see through and not tear.If it tears mix for another 1 to 2 minutes and test again.To get maximum volume in the baked loaf, make sure not to under-knead.
Ferment:
Transfer dough to a lightly oiled container and cover.Leave to rise at room temperature (70 to 75 degrees) for 1 hour.It will inflate only slightly.
Turn: (stretch and fold):
Turn the dough twice at 1-hour intervals.After second turn, cover dough and leave to rise until it expands into a dome twice its original size, 1 to 2 hours more.****It will feel supple, airy, and less sticky.
Retard:
Place the container in the refrigerator and allow the dough to ferment slowly for 12 to 24 hours.It will develop flavor but not rise significantly.Two to 3 hours before you want to bake, remove from refrigerator and let stand on the counter, covered.It will not rise and will feel cool.
Preheat oven:About 1 hour before baking heat oven (with baking stone) to 450°F.
Shape loaves:
Scrape dough onto floured counter and coat the top of the dough with flour.Press the mound of dough into a rough 10-inch square. Cut dough into 2 equal pieces (18 ounces/518 grams each).With floured hands, lift up one piece from the ends and in one smooth motion, gently stretch it to about 12 inches long and let it fall in whatever shape it may onto parchment paper.Repeat with the remaining piece of dough, spacing the two pieces at least 2 inches apart.(No need to score.)
Bake:
Steam oven as usual.Immediately after shaping, slide loaves, on the parchment, onto the baking stone.Bake until crust underneath the swirls of flour is walnut-colored, 20 to 30 minutes.
Cool:
Cool on wire rack for about 1 hour before slicing.Don’t be surprised by the long troughs running through the crumb.This is part of the bread’s character.
Store:
Store loaves with cut side covered in plastic at room temp for 3 to 4 days.For longer storage, freeze in resealable plastic bags for up to 1 month.
http://zolablue.smugmug.com/gallery/4189134#244767439
NOTES:
*Leader says to allow the levain only to double in the amount of time noted.My starter more than tripled in less than 6 hours so at that time I mixed the dough.I think this may have slowed my fermentation way down since my starter had not fully risen and collapsed but I find I am always at odds with Leader’s instructions on firm starters.
**The levain recipe calls for ingredients which make up more than is needed for the dough recipe which I find problematic only because it bugs me.I want instructions for making the amount I need for a recipe and not to have any levain as leftover.He does this in some recipes and not in others so to me that is another flaw in their editing.Just make sure you weigh the proper amount for the dough recipe.
***I used a DLX mixer at about medium speed for roughly 10 to 12 minutes.
****My dough did not rise more than about 25% (if that) in the container in more than three hours after fermentation started.Again, I think that was due to using my levain too soon.I chose to place the dough in my pantry overnight to rise instead of the refrigerator since it had not doubled as it was supposed to by that time.My pantry is very cold at 62°F now as it is on an outside wall and this allowed a good spot for the dough to ferment overnight instead. It rose to just over double by the time I was ready to bake it.That fermentation took about 17 hours total.
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Those pictures are out of this world - not to mention your detailed and very clear instructions. You are such a wonderful baker!
I'm not sure whether I will actually try this recipe because it looks a bit too rustic for my family's taste, and I did notice the word 'tangy' slipped in...
But, it looks fantastic !!!!
L_M
ZB,
Wow, this may be "the" ZB masterpiece. I don't know, but it's at least right up there with the best bread photography I've seen. The photos are just perfect, especially that last one.
Bill
I saw that one in the book too (just got it from the library).
That crumb is amazing!
I had a few adustments with the first recipe I made too--but I futzed with the recipe a bit so it was too early to judge the book. Good point that some of our starters behave a bit differently.
You had to show me this! Zolablue, those are some fabulous loaves! And, I agree with Bill -- your photos are outstanding. You may have changed my game plan for this weekend.
Gorgeous loaves!
Liz
That. Looks. So. Good.
-Cyrus
Zolablue, your bread and your photos are Amazing! Ditto what Bill said, masterpiece.
TT
L_M – Thanks so much and but I still call myself an accidental baker. There is so much to learn and when we have a success it really feels good especially trying out a new recipe. I doubt this bread is for you because it is tangy but not overly so however I suppose that is kind of subjective to the taste buds.
Bill – You are too, too nice to me. I love it so please never stop! (lol)
Fleur – I was thinking about you as I was posting this. It was meant to entice you into baking submission. (hehe) Please make this soon and let me know your thoughts. If you love it as much as I do we might be even (after making me fall in love with Pain de Campagne and subsequently bake it 600 times!) Ok, maybe not 600 but…:o).
JMonkey – Yes, it is 10% rye and I did use medium rye which I recently bought from KA. I’m trying to notice the difference in flavor as I usually use Hodgson Mill whole rye since that is all I’ve found locally so far. As far as this bread tasting like rye, I have to admit I’ve not eaten that much rye bread. I would say it is a subtle flavor in that department but this has a just wonderful, deep flavor to me. I want to make it a lot! And I really prefer milder sourdough but this is really so good and I can just imagine it making incredible Panini.
Breadnerd – How did you find this as far as rye flavor goes? Or maybe you meant you tried a different Leader recipe.
I can say that I noticed a big difference in the Pain de Campagne I made using the medium rye flour over the whole rye. I loved them both but I almost preferred the whole rye in that recipe. So definitely medium rye is milder. I think. I'm not sure. I did make Hamelman's 40% rye for Reuben's on New Year's Day and it was very rye tasting and really good rustic bread.
To summarize, my first thought tasting this bread was, wow, is this what San Francisco sourdough must taste like? Yum! All I know is that it isn’t overpowering to me at all but just DELICIOUS. I’d love to know if that is anyone else’s experience. FWIW, my husband just ate several pieces toasted and he is generally not a huge bread eater. He ate some with apricot preserves and then tasted mine with plain butter and he loved the flavor so much he toasted two more pieces for himself. The whole time he was oohing and aahing how good it was. Made me smile.
Save a place for me on that wagon--another beautiful post, zolablue. I see you've finally taken the rye plunge, and it does look extraordinary.
And I think once again, as I so often do here, what lucky families we all have, who get to reap the fruits of our obsession and are never in want of excellent bread.
pictures of your loaves, I can smell and almost taste the bread, Wow, that's power photography!
Mini O
Beautiful....just beautiful!
Once again, I knew it was you right away when I saw the photo on the front page. Fantastic!
Susanfnp
http://www.wildyeastblog.com
Coincidentally, I too tried this bread for the first time at the weekend. Mine didn't look nearly as good as yours Zola but it tasted fanstastic. It's my new favourite bread. I love that there's really no shaping required.
I left my starter overnight to develop - about 10 hours. I too found the dough took far longer to rise at the ferment stage than Leader says. I've come to the conclusion his estimate on the ferment stage is a bit too optimistic (I have made a lot of the breads from that book and so far, none of them give an estimate of rising time greater than about 3 hours). It was about 75F in my kitchen and it really hadn't risen much more than about 25% after about 5 hours! So I stuck it in the fridge with no real expectations it would rise any more. I was surprised to find it had risen beautifully to almost 3.5 times the next day. The taste is fantastic. I think it IS similar to a SF sourdough but the taste is so complex it's not like tanginess is the only thing your palate tastes. My husband and I had it with smoked salmon and capers and that was yum. It's just as good with sweet conserves though.
I'd like to play around with the rye content because I thought it was barely discernable for a bread that's supposed to be a light rye.
Fiona
Fiona - Thanks so much for reporting about your experience making this bread. I'll try it again and allow the levain to go overnight just to see what happens.
My kitchen was about 70F and I thought that might have had a lot to do with how slowly it rose but apparently not. I'm really surprised the dough rose that much in your fridge. Wow. I was afraid if I put mine into the fridge without enough rise it would do nothing and I'd simply be starting from scratch the next day waiting for this very long, slow rise. I'll try that next time, too.
I'm glad you agree that the taste is complex. And that it is good with preserves as well as a turkey, jarlsberg cheese grilled sandwich I made with it today. Yum! The smoked salmon sounds wonderful, too!
Thanks for your opinion on the rye flavor. I wasn't sure as most rye breads I've eaten are so loaded with caraway I'm not sure I really taste the rye as much as the seeds. I don't see how adding more rye would hurt. Also, I wonder what would happen if we used whole rye. Seems like a good recipe to experiment with. Thanks again for your great notes!
How did making this by hand work out for you? I'm so curious because he doesn't even give instructions in the book for that method. It is such a wet dough and oddly elastic during mixing which also made it fun. I can't imagine how you were able to knead it by hand - you must be really good!
I agree, it is so frustrating that Leader didn't pay attention to the levain amounts on many of his recipes. I'm sure your bread will taste fine as it didn't make a lot more than required for the recipe, plus it is such a slow riser. I'll be anxious to hear how it turns out for you and hope you like it.
RUSTIC LIGHT RYE
Well, there it is. I made a big goof when I added all the levain to the dough but in the end I think the results were fine. I ended up with 5 12" loaves because I doubled the recipe and, of course, added too much levain. I did this totally by hand but believe me it wasn't work. I kneaded a total of exactly 4 minutes. I don't have a lot of strength in my arms.
A quick rundown...After I had the dough mixed and realized my error I thought there it goes but I decided to go ahead with the project anyway. I let the dough sit for 45 min. and then did my 4 min. of kneading. Let it rest 1 hour, did a stretch and fold, rest 1 hour, another stretch and fold, let it rise 3 hours, shape and let rise 1 1/2 hr. and baked.
I really didn't shape so much as stretch the dough out like a ciabatta and did some dimpling on two and slashing on two. One loaf I just folded in half once without sealing well just to see what it would do. It's the split loaf. My thought is because it had more levain it rose faster so I didn't retard overnight. I handled the dough gently and let it rise till it seemed puffy and light. I didn't think I would get the holes and didn't know how the taste would be but the holes are there and let me tell you you're right about the great taste. Really great but it has no sour or very little. I ground the wheat and rye in my Nutrimill and I think it added a great, almost sweet, nutty flavor to the bread even though there is really very little there.
So, I think I just might add all the levain next time too. Oh, one more thing. I tried to leave the bread in the oven to get nice and really dark like yours but I don't care how many times I've tried it my loaves never get that beautiful dark crust. I think I chicken out and pull the loaves because they are about to burst into flames. Then I get them cooled and think where's the dark crust. Oh well, it was a fun day and thanks for being the first with so many great breads. You're an inspiration.
weavershouse
You mad woman (hehe) you got some great looking loaves! I still don't see how you kneaded by hand, honestly the dough is one of the wettest I've worked with and then just plain elastic and sticky when fully kneaded. But you did it!
You know, I always have the voice of Maggie Glezer inside my head when I'm about ready to take loaves out of the oven. She says when you think they're done give them 5 more minutes!
Did you taste the rye flavor?
When I made the mistake of using all the levain it probably changed the structure of the dough enough that it was wet but not impossible to work with. By the 2nd stretch and fold it was much easier. I'm happy that I could do this by hand because I don't have a mixer and I was skipping recipes that called for one. Genzano, here I come!
Oh, I did taste the rye even though there is barely any in there. I used whole ground rye, freshly milled and it made a difference. Next time I'll up the amount. You're right about rye usually tasting of caraway but not here. And next time I'll leave those loaves in the oven till they try getting out themselves. Thanks again zolablue. weavershouse
You made me laugh. (hehe) I love that you are thinking "Genzano" and I'm here to cheer you on. I was looking at pizza dough recipes and see that Leader uses that very dough for pizza as well. I'm going to try it, gosh, it would just be fabulous for pizza.
You made a few changes but the bread still worked. I think that is great because I love the artistic side of baking so much and knowing that you don't have to hurt your brain being so exacting gives me confidence. I've made more than a few mistakes of dumping in too much levain or using a different flour, such as whole rye instead of medium or fine. I would think the whole rye is good in this recipe although your freshly milled would certainly be superior. (Note to self: buy DLX grinder soon.)
I also think Leader way overestimates the speed and amount of time some of these recipes need to mix. I wish sometimes some of us could sit down with him and talk to him and tell him our concerns and ask questions because so much of it doesn't make sense. Still, I absolutely love the book! It is so full of incredibly different and interesting recipes.
weavershouse, how lovely! You've really got the high-hydration-by-hand technique down--when I'm ready to try it again I'll be referring to these notes.
What a great thread Zolablue. Really first rate Artisan work in all aspects. I'm about to take the plunge on a DLX and this is the inspiration I needed.
Can you clarify the handling after you cut the 10X10 square in two, then stretched it as you placed it on the paper? You must be using a scraper to pick it up? I haven't done much with ciabatta style doughs.
Weavershouse those look great also! Both of you got very nice crumb structure.
Eric
Eric - The DLX is fabulous. I highly recommend it.
Leader had a bit more detail in some of the steps so I'll elaborate. He says to "generously" dust the counter with flour and scrape the dough out. I use a very small, fine sieve to dust my counter with flour because I can really control the amount I put down that way and I don't like the dough picking up a lot of raw flour. So that's what I did.
When the dough is scraped out it is full of bubbles. I was careful to pat it out gently into roughly 10 x 10 trying to preserve as many bubbles as I could. I have marble counters which are really great for dough handling and it is easy to pick up dough pieces from it without a heavy dusting of flour. I also use a large plastic dough cutter since I can't use metal on my marble. It is really quick and easy.
All you do is cut the pressed out dough in half with your dough scraper and pick it up at the ends and stretch gently and place onto the parchment. I actually tore two separate pieces of parchment so I could control how I placed them on my baking stone. The dough was very springy and didn't want to stay stretched so I picked up each piece again and actually held them kind of from the ends first and then put one hand under the middle section and let it kind of fall on both sides, if that makes sense. It is really pretty forgiving dough. All of that took only a few seconds.
Then you place those pieces on the parchment and bake immediately. No scoring. Steam oven and bake. I only baked mine 20 minutes and was amazed at how they sprung in the oven from those odd flattish pieces.
More notes from the foreword, Leader stated he was surprised when Nury first presented this bread to him - this oblong, free form loaf with none of the tapered points, artful scores or elegant shape that you are used to seeing in French bread. He described them as bronze, flour-dusted and squat in appearance like Italian ciabatta. He said it didn't take him long to reconsider his first impression of these loaves. He tells how Nury cuts the dough into pieces, pulls it into long, slack loaves and bakes them right away. Easy peasy.
Thanks, Digger! Here is a site I like because you can look below at a list of ingredients and then use the chart at the top to make your conversions. I'm not sure how accurate it is based on the food choice but it works to give you an idea about the conversion. Just be aware that measuring by volume compared to weight can lead to somewhat different results depending how you measure flour, ie: dip and scoop, spoon into cups, sift and then spoon or dip and scoop. Everyone has a little different hand in doing that.
http://www.convert-me.com/en/convert/cooking
Zolablue: You are a bread temptress, indeed! I just had to make this bread, even though I am been heavily tempted by two other posts of late (Bertinet's basic sourdough posted by JinxRemoving and Hamelman's Olive Levain posted by Bart). So, what's an obsessive-compulsive baker supposed to do but bake them all!
Back to Pierre -- all was going well. I, too, experienced slower rising times than Leader suggested, but it did continue to rise during retardation in the refrigerator. The shaping and stretching went well... no problems there. Slipped the two stretched loaves (full of air bubbles by this point) onto the floured parchment, slipped the parchment on to the hot stone, and when I went to move the oven rack back into the oven, the breads flew off the floured parchment and both landed in a heap on the oven floor! One was folded like an accordion and the other was just a tangled mess. Now how do I retrieve these things from the back of a hot oven???? I pulled out the stone, the racks, the steamy broiler pan with lava racks, took a giant spatula and pulled out the globs. However, I was not about to lose these guys to the whims of floured parchment. I flattened them and restretched them (one of them had already started to form a bit of a crust), put them back on the parchment and back into the oven they went.
Here is what Pierre looks like after his wild rollercoaster ride:
ZB: I agree that the taste is really wonderful. It's funny how pronounced the rye flavor is (I used freshly milled rye like Weavershouse), even though there is so little in the formula.
I will definitely try this again with a more conventional entry into the oven!
Thanks,
Liz
Oh, I just have to laugh but with empathy. I have had mishaps when shoving too-large loaves into my smaller-than-normal ovens. Oh, my, I have had them catch on some very interesting metal rack holders on the sides and fall down over my smallish baking stone like they are dripping and pushed into another metal thingie in the back of the oven and I have never been able to retrieve them quite so well as you!
Oh, my gosh! I bet you were horrified! We can laugh now and I bet that was not fun but, hey, what a trooper you are. And just look at your loaves - beautiful! Quite rustic...hehe. But seriously this is another testament to the recipe and how well those loaves hold up, if you ask me. I'm wondering if we could play catch with them just before popping them into the oven and they'd still come out ok.
You guys and your freshly milled flour are making me have milling envy!
That is beautiful bread!
And what's even funnier to me... I'm on vacation, in Cancun, and I brought Local Breads with me (as a casual read, no less...) and I read that entire recipe last night and was dying to know what it would look like since he didn't post a picture of it! And how lucky am I to get on here this morning as I kill time until my flight and find it here in all its glory!!
I fly back home today and will be making that bread ASAP. You did a *fantastic* job! Very inspirational for me! Thank you so much for sharing!
Melissa in Atlanta
Weavershouse and Zolablue:
Thank you both for your empathy on my poor loaves. I did utter an expletive or two when they flew (and I mean flew) off the stone. But, since I had to retrieve them anyway for fear of what my oven floor would look like if they stayed there, I thought why not give it a try and see what happens.
Yes, this is a VERY forgiving formula and one that, given what my loaves endured, I might recommend to a new baker.
I have a large 36"oven so it wasn't easy task to pull them out from the back of the hot and steamy oven. And, can you imagine how much heat was lost during the retrieval process? However, they still cooked well, although I gave them some extra minutes. About quarter of the cut loaf was just a bit too battered so I gave a chunk to my eager dog and tossed the other part out.
Very rustic, indeed!
ZB: I also have both Bertinent books and never baked from either one. But JinxRemoving's post on "Cambridge Sourdough" inspired me and I though I would give the basic sourdough formula a try. [I am so easy -- I see a new bread recipe and I have to give it a try!] I love trying new methods as I always seem to learn something new. Anyway, the basic sourdough is very good. He uses a small amount of spelt for his whole grain addition, and it gives the finished loaves a nice, nutty taste. The crumb is very light and airy (I prefer a bit more chewy), and it has a moderate amount of tang. He uses a huge amount of very firm starter in his levain, shorter bulk fermentation, but a very long proof at cool temperatures. I would say that it's a very good, all purpose sourdough that would go well with most foods. If you give it a try, let me know what you think.
Thank you both again for feeling my pain!
Liz
Stunning looking bread! Another to try! ZB, you are just the best!
Andrew
Here's mine. Kind of homely loaves but like a geode prettier on the inside:
I too, added all the levain, and also threw the levain in the fridge for a night because I pooped out on making the dough... I also seemed to have been quite negligent on reading the recipe thuroughly, as I didn't realize you didn't do a final proof and turned on the oven a bit late thinking I had another whole proofing stage--I'm a little off my game this week obviously! :)
But all in all I think it turned out all right. It's a little thin-crusted and damp like the NYT bread--though in fairness I cut into it while it was still warm. I also could have baked it another five minutes or so--by the color and tap sound it was done, and it was, but a few more minutes might have given me a crunchier crust.
The taste is great, though. And I love the crumb. It's a cool method, pretty adaptable to any schedule. Always fun to try new approaches, and lots of inspiration here for sure!
I can sure empathize! But it all worked out and it sure seems to confirm that this is a great recipe with a lot of fudge facter. :o) Did you also notice it took a lot longer for the dough to rise? And I'd be interested to see what you think about how much you taste the rye.
You're reminding me to make this bread again. It was really a fun recipe and so good.
I can't really taste the rye. Actually, I was thinking when scaling out the ingredients that it's very close to the infamous columbia sourdough in content. Just a little mix of different flours for flavor, but I wouldn't call it a rye bread by any stretch (less than a cup in the entire recipe)....
Um. let me think about the rise... It didn't do a whole lot, for one thing I rose it in my DLX bowl which was to big. But, after 2 folds it definitely changed in textre (from gloopy to a soft elestic dough). Today when I got it out of the fridge it did get puffy after an hour or two (by then I had put it into a smaller bowl for retarding).
zolablue
Lovely bread! I've tried to make it twice now and can't seem to get it right.
The first time the dough 'flowed' and the rise was about 3/4 inch. The second time I reduced the amount of water, but the rise wasn't much better. How do you manage to get such a good rise and such a great crumb? Any advice would be appreciated.
carthurjohn
How long did you mix the dough and at what speed? For me it really developed into a very elastic feeling dough at the end of the mix.
How long did you let the dough ferment? Did you give it enough time to double and also did you do the two folds? It is a very slow riser and as noted it took 17 hours for me from starting its fermentation to the time I was ready to bake it.
zolablue,
I mixed the dough for 15 mins (pausing every 5 mins) on 1.5 (I am based in UK and use an old Kenwood mixer with a dough hook). It was quite a silky, though very sticky dough at the end of that time.
To be honest I probably didn't let the dough ferment long enough for it to double in volume, though I left it for about 2-3 hours. Our kitchen is cold so for the second attempt I put it in the boiler cupbaord and even then it did not double in size. I did fold it twice and retard it in the fridge for about 12 hours.
The recipe does use a lot of water and I wonder how you managed to avoid the problem with flow or does this not happen when you let the dough double in volume?
Perhaps I need to be more patient with the ferment prior to retarding!
It sounds like you mixed it properly. I had the same problem, as did others above, with the dough not rising as Leader stated in that 3 - 4 hour period after mixing and before retarding. It just didn't happen. So all I can say is to allow it to ferment until it clearly has reached double or more and is obviously very well expanded no matter how long that takes. If your kitchen is especially cold that could take even longer.
As I mentioned previously, I was so worried about the lack of rise in the time Leader stated it should rise before retarding that I feared putting it in my refrigerator at all. So I put my dough in the pantry where it was about 62F degrees and total fermentation was about 17 hours and expanded very well by that time. I did not have any trouble with "flowing" dough. My dough was very soft and supple but not runny.
If someone else can give better advice please feel free!
zolablue,
Thanks for your advice, I'll just have to be more patient with the proving process and leave it for longer.
On the issue of flow, do you think it is worth knocking back the water content from 400g to 300g? Or does the longer proving time mean that this is not such a problem for some reason?
carthurjohn
I've made this bread three times (with better luck on transferring to the oven on the last two trys!) It is possible that your flour in the UK may be absorbing more water than our US flour. But, before I cut back on the water (since you need such a high hydration dough to achieve that open ciabatta-like crumb) I would first check to see if the gluten is properly developed during the kneading process. What is the protein content of your bread flour? ZB and I both used a flour with 14.2% protein, which could make a difference. After kneading did you give the dough the windowpane test? It really is the only objective way to see if the gluten is properly developed. Did you fold the dough twice at hourly intervals? That really improves the dough structure. And, like Zolablue mentioned, the rising time is a lot longer than Leader suggests. Since my kitchen is cool at this time, I let the bulk fermentation go a bit longer than suggested. Also try doing a really long overnight retardation in the refrigerator (or cool spot like ZB did). I think I have retarded this dough for up to 16 hours. It did rise some in the refrigerator, but never doubled. After taking the dough out, I've kept it at room temperature for up to 5 hours before baking. By then, it did double. All this long fermentation produced such a lovely sourdough taste. Keep trying as this bread is worth doing! It is perfect for panini sandwiches.
Good luck,
Liz
Liz,
Thanks for your thoughts on this. I am using Shipton Mill Organic Strong Plain Flour (which I normally use for baking bread) - but it doesn't quote the protein content on the bag and I can't find it on their website.
I did do the windowpane test and also the folding as specified. I think that I really have to increase the proving time - for however long it takes.
Regards,
carthurjohn
I think Fleur gave you some good advice. I was wondering about the flour as well. That high gluten flour we used makes a difference and even the King Arthur brand bread flour is much higher in protein level. That's a great place to start. I also agree with Fleur that the amount of water called for in the recipe is important to acheiving that open crumb.
Carthurjohn - I think we were posting at the same time. I tried to find the flour you are referring to on Shipton's site but they don't list protein levels. I did however find this information on Dan Lepard's site by one of the forum posters about some of the flours he uses so wondering if any of these are the one you also use:
Shipton Mill Flour:
· Finest Bakers White Bread Flour (protein content 12.2%),
· French White Type 55 (protein content 10.5%),
· Untreated Organic White Flour No 4 (protein content 11.8-12.2%),
· Italian Ciabatta Flour (protein content 14%) and
· Canadian Strong White Bread Flour (protein content 13.2%).
I just found this link, if it helps:
http://www.shipton-mill.com/ALL-PURPOSE-FLOUR.html
I've got the dough going through the fermenting 3-4 hour process at the moment. And made it with good ol normal ap wheat, rye starter, rye. And believe it or not, following the directions to the tee! My starter got revved up 8 pm last night and was ready to go at 6am (10hrs) but I started around 7am to mix up the dough. I wanted also to kill my mixer so I can buy a new one so into the bowl on a low setting with dough hook went my dough. I'm quite impressed with my cheapie mixer, let it work away. ( I don't think I can kill it in this manner.) I'm impressed with the dough generally and seems to be behaving (so far) just as Leader claims.
Now since I've got plenty of starter (ended up with 275g, ok, didn't folow the recipe to the T, thought the Levain was too dry so added a little water, then read it should be dry and then added more flour, so what! it sat overnight, rose better than expected and came out just fine.) Where was I? So I made up another batch of dough and added 2tsp of instant yeast. it's rising like crazy! I need bread for lunch and with the sd in there, should make a nice white sandwich round. It's already doubled at 10:30. And I'm folding the pierre-nury (tomorrow's bread). ...Loaf was out of oven at 12:00 noon looking lovely! (like the silesian loaf)
pierre-nury: top right is with added yeast
The folding and replacing the pierre-nury into an oiled bowl is a hastle. Works better to just leave it on the counter top and cover with a bowl, cause it ain't going nowhere. It's starting to lighten up after 4 hours but I'll give it one more fold before cold storage.
Next day: Took it out of fridge and didn't see much difference. Very cold fridge 4°c or 40°F. Will let it stand out 3-4 hrs, per recipe and bake at noon. I got to go pour some cement, be back later...
Oops, so much for following the recipe...got them in the oven around 3pm but not before gently folding them one more time, (crossing my fingers, but my gut instinct said they were overproofed sitting out for 6+ hours. Slid them immediately into a hot steamy oven and sat on the floor to watch. I wouldn't say they were lookers but they taste great! I was actually expecting more sour (like too much sour, they sat a full 24hours in the fridge) but they're not. I couldn't resist with all the popping noise to cut off a hot piece. Went digging around and found some whipping cream that was turning to butter but wasn't sour yet. Slathered it onto my wedge and bit into an almost burnt crunchy wonderful smelling, even closing my eyes, full of holes delight, wow, only to open my eyes and see my canine friend looking back at me (and then to my bread, gosh, how do they know it's so good?). The dark crust really makes this bread and in only 20 min. baking time! Next time I have to fold it, I'll try to make rolls using the pain de beaucaire method.
Mini O
Mini - Were you trying to post photos? I see nothing showing up if you did. Hope it isn't just me.
You are so funny. Your description sounded so good and reminded me how flavorful this bread is and I could not help but mix up the levain today to try it again. I'll mix the dough tomorrow but this time I'll use whole rye to compare the flavor difference.
Btw, I am wondering how long you all had to let your levain rise. Mine doubled in about 2 hours but I let it go longer just to see how much more it would grow and then popped into the fridge for overnight. My levains never rise according to Leader's time table, they're always so much faster and I'm not sure why that is.
I did erase the "doubles" that popped up in my "track" but that was hours later. I still have them on my desktop but the undertitles came through. funny... Do you suppose I erased photos in other threads?
ZB, to answer the levain Q, I think you got a very powerful sourdough and you have a feel for its ideal conditions, very good! I don't go out of my way to warm up my fed starter, it stands around 73°F in the kitchen. Overnight around 60°F on the porch. I think his times are average and you can bend them. The rye likes it cool, I can see why it is a favorite in this region so the longer times don't bother me. Don't let your shorter times bother you, make note in your books though, I love to use a red pen! :)
Pierre-nury
pierre-nury crumb
I've got this going again today, I really like this bread with butter & camenbaer cheese. I'm planning on baking this tomorrow with a final fold of cheese and grilled tomatoes and peppers inside, pizza spices, then cut into 2 inch sections and laid on edge with bottoms pinched together. We will see. Gotta pour some more cement today, my hands are ready for a sourdough facial, maybe smear some on and then the gloves! ....na, too kinky.
Mini O
Wow, wow, your bread looks fantastic! You are making me drool with that description of cheese, grilled tomatoes and peppers, etc. I have some exceptional goat cheese and I'm going to try that on it when I get this next batch baked.
About the levain again, I don't mind as much as long as I understand what point it is really supposed to be ready for the bread dough. I'm kind of anal that way. On the other hand bread recipes seem to be fairly dynamic for all the exquisite pondering we do over exact percentages.
I have to ask, what is all this cement pouring? Are you serious?! (Have I missed something...:o)
Your bread looks so perfect. What a great recipe this is and what a great job you did with it. I've been making myself refrain from baking bread until I use up what's in the freezer but everyday I take my sourdough out of the fridge, put it back in, take it out at least one more time and tell myself, or otherself, not yet. Well, your photos and very fun write up put me over the edge. The SD is out of the fridge and I'm going for it.
This bread has such a lingering good taste that I might make this recipe more than any other. I have none in the freezer so I think I should make it...now!
Your photos are great and I swear I can taste that bread. The sour is just right for us. weavershouse
Isn't this bread just the most interesting recipe. I have so many on my "to try" list but certain recipes just call to you and Mini didn't help matters making me so hungry for it again! :o)
I won't be able to bake mine until tomorrow as it has to go through its long overnight rise but I just cannot wait. I think I may actually make up another levain today so I can bake a batch for my neighbors on Saturday.
Oh yea, got the cement job done. Now the toilet won't fall off the wall when I go to visit my nephew. (He's got a new flat and I'm helping him out a little... also poured some over the newly laid pipes in the floor. We build tough around here...) I just love to get my hands into stuff! The fresh baked bread has been feeding the work force. (painting, laying floor, electrical, sanding doors, etc)
For Valentine's day (I live about 20 kilometers from St. Valentine, the town.) I bought my men a new lawn mower! They can't say I've no heart!
AND HERE THEY ARE: Pizzie-Pierries (The toppings were a little heavy on the dough but they tasted great, maybe traditionally flat would bake better...I call 'em "End of the winter tire sale pizzas" black olive effect...the dough made 9, don't ask how that happened, it just did.)
Mini O
Got to do these again. The now older work crew was asking...
http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/5974/pizzies-pierrenuries-9-story
I might freeze them for mini-oven size servings. Shrimp, crab, bacon...
ZB
These have got to be the most inspirational photos I've seen in a long, long time. Outstanding. I know what I'll be baking next weekend.
Sylvia
Sylviambt - I hope you make this and like it as much as some of us here do. It is a great recipe.
Mini - Those look incredible! I'm sure they were delicious and you are making me very hungry.
I made my second batch of this bread and increased it enough to make three loaves. I used the whole rye to compare to the medium rye flavor. I promptly gave two of the loaves to my neighbors and had one left that I decided to take down to my parents house so I have no idea how the crumb looked or how it tasted. I did start another levain yesterday before we left town so I can make another batch again today and bake tomorrow. I just about can't wait.
I wanted to report on my results from substituting whole rye in place of the medium rye called for in the recipe. It completely changed the crumb structure and texture and the flavor was different for me as well. The whole rye did not add any more "rye" flavor either.
Having made two batches of this within a couple days I can also report that my dough rose significantly faster. I did allow the levains to expand way beyond double so perhaps that was the reason, based on how my starter works and not due to the whole rye flour. Both batches rose according to Leader's instructions and actually doubled by the first hour following the second fold.
When I put them into the refrigerator they continued to rise and were easily quadrupled by the time I took them out to bake. The first whole-rye batch I allowed to sit at room temperature for a couple hours and it continued to rise. (Yowsa!) Based on that, the second whole-rye batch only sat out for about a half hour and I decided, what the heck, even if it is cold it will bake nicely so I popped it into the oven. Those loaves actually looked better.
But using the whole rye really affects the hydration so you don't get the wonderful, very-open crumb and texture that you do when using the medium rye. Or at least I did not. I even added about 50 - 60 grams more water on the second batch but it still was not enough.
In the future, I'm going to stay true to the written recipe to get the flavor and crumb Leader describes and that I was so lucky to acheive with my first run. It is just amazing bread.
I'm going to have to make another batch again using the medium rye and allow my levain to ripen more and see how the dough performs. Anyway, hope this info helps.
David
David - I can't answer why the difference, but I got two consistent results with the whole rye and while they looked like the same bread on the outside the crumb was just not the same. The dough was not very wet despite my adding extra water so obviously I didn't add enough. I also think Leader wrote the recipe the way he did for a reason and once that tiny deviation is made it is no longer that recipe anymore - good bread, but just not the same recipe.
I also thought my loaves would be overproofed based on how much that dough expanded in the refrigerator. Remember when I made it the first time it was so dead looking (hehe) I was afraid to put it into the fridge and stuck it into my very cool pantry instead.
Honestly, I have far from the experience to know why the dough behaved so differently using the whole rye instead of the medium rye. I’m thinking more it was due to the way I handled my levain. I’ll know more once I make it again.
You are talking about using white rye but the recipe calls for medium rye or fine rye. What is fine rye? Is that another name for white rye? (I'm starting to sound demented.)
I may be wrong, but didn't Liz use whole rye? There are so many posts here I kind of scanned them to see. If she did she has large holes in her loaves. I know I used whole rye and the holes are not as large. I also use KA AP or KA organic Artisan flour because I'm not using a mixer and was told by KA that you need a mixer if using Sir Lancelot. Could that make a difference?
I don't know if mini or the others used whole rye or what. I think I was the only one who didn't use a mixer I wonder if the holes are smaller because of that. I'm going to get started on a new batch tonight and sift some of my whole rye to see what, if anything changes.
Wish we could all have sample tastes or each others breads.
Looking forward to results of the experiments of you and David. weavershouse
Liz milled her own rye so I don't know what that means exactly in comparison.
I can't understand why it would matter so much. It is probably the way I handled it in not adding enough more water when I could clearly see the dough was simply not very wet dough like in the first time I made it. And it also didn't have that same almost odd elastic feel I got the first time. It reminded me of chewing wheat grains to make gum - we did that when we were kids - I know, that sounds so corny. (lol)
But, again, it wasn't just the crumb not being quite as open but it didn't have the same chewiness or spring. Hard to describe. Great tasting bread - really wonderful but I just preferred it so much the first time I followed the recipe accurately.
Just wanted to pipe in on this discussion of types of rye to use in this bread. I have made it 3 or 4 times and have always used freshly milled rye. It is whole rye, milled somewhat finely (I didn't sift out the bran). Since I don't know how the dough would feel with a commercial type of rye or a lighter rye, I cannot comment. I can only say that this dough has worked very well for me using freshly milled whole rye. The flavor is outstanding.
I have found the rising times to vary quite a bit. This weekend my starter must have been feeling extra frisky, as the dough rose at a much faster clip. For the first time, there was considerable rise after the bulk fermentation. And, during the overnight retardatation, the dough popped the top of the lid! Interestingly, while it tastes great and did have some nice ovenspring, this bread lacked the extra large holes of previous versions that didn't rise as dramatically. Is there a relationship between a longer, slower rise and a more open crumb?
Thank you, Zolablue, for introducing me to this bread. It's become a staple in my bread repertoire. I much prefer it to typical ciabatta type bread. And, I love what MiniOven has done with this dough.
One aside -- there has been recent discussion elsewhere on Reinhart's Pain a l'Ancienne. While I've never made that recipe, it seems like some of the techniques are similar to Pierre Nury-- the long ferementation in the refrigerator (though it's made with yeast), slack dough and non-shaping before baking. Has anyone baked both recipes?
Liz
Liz - You reminded me that I forgot to say that earlier! (hehe) I was contemplating the faster rise and the less open crumb, too. Hmmm, interesting. I just don't know but there was something seriously different in those last two rises. It is funny you mention the lid popping off because mine was close to doing that as well!
I agree I love what Mini did with this and I'm so glad you love the bread, too. This is just payback for you getting me so hooked on that wonderful Pain de Campagne which I still adore so thanks back!
Oh, and I have made Reinhart's Pain a l'Ancienne many times; actually it was the second recipe I ever baked; Reinhart's ciabatta being my first. Anyway, great stuff! Interestingly, I did think of that bread the first time I made the Pierre Nury which is very similar in the way you make the loaves. (Crappy photo but here was my first attempt at that bread.)
Pain a l'Ancienne
no mixer, my milled rye that I sifted one time, Wheat Montana all purpose flour, my milled whole wheat for the levain
Last night I made the levain, this morning I mixed the dough and used the wire dough wisk to mix it in the bowl about 4 or 5 min., let sit an hour, did one S & F, let sit one hour, did one S & F. Put in very cold room. Tomorrow I'll continue.
I'm hoping mostly that the taste is great, as usual, and that the bread has large holes...but not too large. I want some crumb there! I look forward to everyones experiments.
One experiment I made last week with this recipe was to use my sourdough starter in place of making a levain. The bread was ok but nothing like it should be. Oh well, I tried. weavershouse Added 2-21-08This batch came out pretty much like the first. This time I added the right amount of levain and I didn't see any difference. I didn't notice any difference in taste with the sifted rye. There is so little rye in this bread I don't know why Leader calls it a rye. It adds a lot of flavor but it's not a rye bread. Anyway, the bread is delicious. I think the larger holes come from using a mixer. I'm happy with the crumb as shown in my post above. Also, this batch hardly did any rising in the overnight retarding but rose up very well in the oven. Other times I've made it the dough more than doubled overnight. Who knows. How's it going for you David? weavershouse
David
I think the big holes has to do with handling of the dough. Once it left the mixer, all I did was fold it, no kneading, punching, poking, dropping, etc. (I love to drop dough, that really pops bubbles!) The rye I use is whole fine type 960.
Rye type 960 Haberfellner: Rubbed onto my dry hands
The all puropse wheat is type-480 but I now have some type-700 (more ash). Zee pizzies even had coarse white type-480 in zee dough. I did use lots of steam, and after the water was gone, removed the water pan so the bottom would get very brown. I used a rye starter. I think getting the crust brown is very important to flavour.
Mini O
(info: Type 700 or 800 is light rye, medium rye is type 850, light pumpernickel is type 1300 and dark pumpernickel rye is type 1700)
I saw this on the site, realized we were on our last slices of the previous loaf, and put it together tonight. I had a minor panic attack when I went back to find the recipe and could no longer find the links. I too have Dan Leader's book from the library, which I paged thru over supper--due tomorrow!--but I may renew it so I know what to do after the retard!
I have a starter that I feed daily so that it's ready to go...it's somewhere between a liquid levain and the firm levain mentioned in the book, so I tweaked the proportion of water. The gluten has developed sooo nicely...I could spin a web with it...
I can only hope that my loaves turn out as lovely as any of those posted on this thread!
Paula F
Philadelphia PA
Zolablue,
I really appreciate your posting. I am having the same problem which you mentioned where you said: "****My dough did not rise more than about 25% (if that) in the container in more than three hours after fermentation started. Again, I think that was due to using my levain too soon."
I set my timer for 2 hours before going to sleep and just got up to check the rise and it's about the way you described yours was after 3 hours. I was wondering what I should do so I came in and checked my computer and found your posting. I too used starter, which had been recently refreshed (within the past couple of days) and was in good shape for making the levain. Anyway, I''ll keep it in a cool place until morning and hope it doubles by then.
Thanks again for mentioning the problem. You have been a great help.
Howard - St. Augustine, FL
Wow, what flavor. When I first saw this recipe I was thinking it might be something fun to try, but I didn't think I had the time to do it. How wrong I was. Beings there is so little handling of the dough there was little time put into it at all, but man alive the flavor is spectacular. I decided to mix it up while I was finishing up the breads for todays market. I thought it would be something new and interesting for our family to try. I am so glad I did now. It just got out of the oven about 45 minutes ago and the smell was marvelous and I couldn't wait to cut into it and see how the crumb was. I am impressed, I will have to try out more of the recipes in this book.
The two loaves after cooling for a bit.
Here is how they turned out.
Blessings,
Lydia
David
Next time I plan to keep it in longer. I had set the timer for 30 minutes and then had to run some errands so hubby pulled it out. I guess he figured that he had better not let it get too dark. On the next go round I will leave it in 30 again, but put the racks a bit higher.
Blessings,
Lydia
This has become one of my favorite recipes since I first tried it a couple of weeks ago. It's so easy, yet so full of flavor.
Hi, crunchy.
Welcome to the Nury's Light Rye Fan Club!
It is a pretty terrific bread.
David
Well, after fearing I was heading towards breadagedden or a doughaster as the dough's for both loaves were very wet the results were positive. See below the very rustic Nury's light rye flanked by two Bouabsa non-ficelle's (too wet to shape properly!)
Looking forward to the fromage course later, cheers Steve
I love reading all your postings, and that motivated me to give this bread a try! I adjusted the formula ratio a bit so that I can use all the levain. I'm not sure if I did the maths correctly, but it worked:
built-up levain: 195g
water: 533g
flour: 600g
rye: 16.67g
salt: 13.34g
I folded it 3 times on the hour, then let it fermented at room temperature for about 2 1/2 hours (just because I had to go to run some errands), then retarded it in the fridge for 18 hours. I took it out from the fridge an hour before baking.
Here is the crumb shot:
This bread is going to replace the C&C's San Fransico Sourdough that I make all the time!
Do you find the crust colour too light? I wonder if I should bake them a bit longer...but when I tapped the bottom, it sounded right (and it smelled right also). So I took them out. Also, I noticed that the bottom was split opened in some areas. I did follow the procedures in dough handling. Do you have any suggestion on how to prevent the bread from opening up on the bottom?
Michelle
Hi, Michelle.
As you discovered, this is a wonderful bread.
It has massive oven spring, and most loaves do have some splits. Look at the photos in this topic. You can see splitting in almost all of them.
You could try scoring your Nury loaves to control where they split, but, with such a wet dough, that my just introduce another set of frustrations.
My advice is to enjoy the rustic look and the marvelous flavor and accept the splitting.
David
You are right, David. This is a rustic bread, so I should accept the look. It is not that bad looking after all :)
Michelle
I have been slashing right after final forming and before final proofing. The bread then splits somewhere near this slash almost always. It appears that some control of where the loaf splits is possible with this method. So far, thankfully, no other frustrations. I do like the rustic splitting very much and think it is a characteristic of rustic breads not to be controlled - too much :-)
Thank you so much, zolablue, for posting this recipe and such detailed instructions -- and of course the lovely photos, which inspired me to give this one a go.
The results with my white-flour starter were very good, but the results with my newly made rye starter, taste-wise, were superior. I'm excited to see how much better the taste of these loaves can get as my starter develops more flavor in the coming months.
Happy holidays :)
Here is my journey with Nury's Rustic Light Rye
I did not use a stiff starter for this but one at 78% hydration. I have been feeding it 125 grams of water, 80 grams of Dover Vienna bread flour, and 80 grams of Organic Stone Ground Red Fife. Which gives me a hydration level of 78%, definitely not a stiff starter. The flavour however is great. It is very acidic with relatively short rise times in most breads.
Dover Vienna
Organic Stone Ground Red Fife
So, what I did for this recipe is simply used my starter as is at 78% hydration. I used all of the prepared levain as many have done. I am very happy with the results and will do the same next time. My levain acted exactly as described by leader. I prepared it at 9:00pm and left in covered on my counter till 8:00am the next morning, when it was nicely doubled and smooth. I prepared the dough at 8:00am and followed the recipe exactly, folding and stretching at one hour increments twice, then let sit on my counter till doubled, mine took 5 hours to completely double and went into the fridge at 3:00pm. The rest of the recipe I followed except I baked mine for 32 minutes plus 3 more minutes with oven off and door open, and of course the usual steam and misting.
I used Rogers Dark Rye Flour and not a light or medium rye. I chose Rogers partly because it is Canadian and I like using local ingredients, like the Dover and Red Fife flours. However, I am very surprised at how little the rye flavour comes through in this bread. I believe it is partly do to two things. First is my use of a Red Fife starter, which really provides a strong nutty/wheat flavour which predominates this bread for me. Secondly is the tangy acidic nature of this starter (and of course the long refrigeration). Now I am not complaining in the least, I LOVE the flavour of this bread. The nutty/wheat flavour with just a hint of rye is amazing!
Here are a few images:
Great rustic crust (my bread did not split)
Nice crunchy crust that is not too thick
Beautiful open and moist crumb
I am now on the Rustic Light Rye bandwagon.
Kyle
Saw a few folks asking about the stiff dough levain for this recipe's levain. I forgot which thread here on the forums gave the ratio for Leader's stiff dough levain, but according to it, and for the amount of stiff dough levain called for in this recipe, this worked great: 15g water : 15g 100% hydration starter : 27g flour (knead to get everything mixed well). The initial starter was fed whole rye flour, and the same flour was used to form the stiff dough ball which was left for 12 hours to ripen before incorporating into this recipe's levain. It does make a little more than 45g, but better to have a little more than a little less. Using this stiff dough levain, the recipe's levain doubled (and then some) in 10 hours and was a perfectly thick, sticky, bubbly mass.
Hi, astutia.
If you look at the photos in this topic, your bread's profile is not out of line. The crumb could be more open, but you are in the ball park there too. Dark rye will generally absorb more water than white rye. It does give better flavor to this bread, IMO.
Your crust color makes me wonder if your oven temperature is accurate. Your breads look like they were baked at a cooler temperature. Have you checked it?
David
I scaled the levain back to end up with the correct amount for one loaf since I put twice the amount in last time I made bread by mistake :-) Am now on second turn right now with ZB's and on first turn with David Snyder's new SF Sourdough recipe using the same starter for both 1/3 rye. 1/3 wheat and 1/3 spelt to see which one I like the best. ZB's are the best looking loaves I have seen and David's bread is tough to beat. Both are such fine bakers....... and so little time to try all of their concoctions
Baked off Zola Blues Pierre Nury and David Snyder's unfinished latest SFSD I'm going to try and post some pictures. Both tasted exactly the same even though David's didn't have any rye in it. Maybe this is because I used the same starter and build for both. I couldn't taste the rye at all in ZB's even though 1/4 of my starter was rye. ZB's proofed higher than David's before it went into the fridge but David's really took off in the retard and after removal from the fridge. ZB's didn't do much at all in retard or the final rise before the oven. The 85 degrees final proof was the difference?
I used my new modified parchment containment for ZB's and David's was placed in a floured basket to retard and rise. I slashed both but the SFSD was tough and dry on top, it may have been over proofed, so I botched the slashing and it deflated a little which my have caused it not to spring at all in the oven. ZB's spring was terrific. I baked them together with a 500 degree preheat, 475 degrees regular bake for the first 15 minutes with a Pyrex bread pan full if boiling water and 12" screaming hot cast iron pan with a cup of water and then 425 degrees convection for the remainder after removing the steam at 15 minutes. I baked ZB's for 30 minutes and David's for 5 minutes longer which was 5 minutes less than David recommended.
Both had the same sourness, David's had a slightly more open crumb even though it didn't spring. I like both very much and they seem to be twins except for their shapes . Why this is I have no idea when one had rye and the other didn't. Thanks to both ZB and David fo their hard work and fine breads
.
I looked at the first posted photographs and thought: I want that too.
little problem, I've never made a sourdough starter before. So after a lot of research my head was spinning. But I did learn a sourdough is fermented flour mixed with water catching wild yeast out of the air. fed every day with some bakers flour or rye and water. Easy.
I made a starter with a little cheating: 1 Cup of flour, 1 C of water 1/2 t of instant active yeast and 1/4 C of cloudy organic apple juice. Boy... did it bubble. I fed it everyday with 1 C of flour and 1 Cup water and every 3rd day with 1 C of rye instead of flour. for 1 week. After taking what I needed for the levian, I weight 500gr with 500gr of flour and 156 gr of water and turned into a ball starter. I let it start for 1 hr and placed it in the fridge
Then I made the recipe. The flour I use only had 11% protein, so I added another 3.5% gluten flour to get 14.5%
followed all the rules, window pane, folding every hour and resting for 24 hr. taken out of the fridge 3 hr before baking. 1/2 hr before baking I heated the oven, 2 minutes of steam prep
The result:
tangy, flavoursom, chewy and holiest bread I have ever eten out side of France, and to be honest even in side of France any boulangerie would be struggeling to make such delicious bread.
I am so pleased it worked. The recipe and my sourdough starter
According to the recipe above – the levain is 45%. Does this consist of the 50 grams water, and 100 grams flours to make the 45 grams of levain? OR does the levain come from someplace else? If you add the %’s, it is 195%, if the add the grams, it is 195 grams. I understand just adding 125 grams of the levain to the dough. I just can’t seem to understand where the 45 grams of levain fits into this. Any help is appreciated.
Any formula for a sourdough bread with assume that you already have a healthy, active sourdough starter. Typically, the formula will provide instructions for the final feeding of the starter (levain) that will be mixed in the final dough.
Zolablue's formula will confuse you if 1) you are not familiar with sourdough baking, and/or 2) you do not understand baker's math. Your questions suggest you have both issues. I strongly recommend that you do some reading on these two topics, and then look at this formula again. Both topics are addressed in the TFL Handbook (See the menu bar at the top of each TFL page.) You might also find my own tutorial on baker's math helpful. (See Baker's Math: A tutorial )
David
I shall do what you suggest - didn't realize that levain = starter.
Since when is a Pierre-Nury so good looking?
It's way too pretty! Hope it tastes as good as it looks.
David