This weekend, I and three other TFLers took a rye class at King Arthur with Jeffrey Hamelman. Larry - aka Wally - Faith in Virginia, and Otis - aka burntmyfingers - were there each driving from a different corner of the region. It was fantastic to meet them for once, knowing them only from their bread and words up to now. The class had 11 students (one didn't show up!) ranging in age and experience, with the one from furthest away hailing from Malibu, CA.
If I had any hopes in advance for the class, it would have been to gain a bit more skill in particular areas like mixing, shaping, slashing. I can safely say that I did not make even an inch of progress in any of these areas. That does not mean however, that I didn't learn anything. Here are the lessons I learned in the order that I think of them.
The most tangible lesson to come out of this class for me is that my rye starter needs work. The smell of the Hamelmanian rye starter is like nothing I've ever smelled before. Since of course we were dealing with large enough quantities of starter to make 25 large loaves of bread for each of the 4 formulas we made over the weekend the mass was much larger than anything I'd ever worked with. The smell was completely overpowering, and I had to move back a pace or two just to keep from keeling over. My rye starter, even with my nose right up to it, just cannot compare. This carried through all the way to the taste of the breads.
Chef Hamelman gave us a disquisition on the benefits of taking good care of our starters, explaining that extended refrigeration without feeding (mea culpa) leads to an acid buildup that in turn begins killing off the yeast and beneficial bacteria. While the King Arthur bakery feeds their wheat and rye starters twice a day, every day, he understood that might be tough for those of us who only bake once or twice a week, but he nevertheless suggested that we up our feeding schedule to at least a few meals per week. While I have been skeptical of this in the past, I am not anymore. In fact, if I could get the flavor in my breads that came out of the King Arthur classroom ovens yesterday, I would gladly feed twice a day no matter how much I had to throw out. Consider me converted at least in theory. We'll see what happens in practice.
Home bakers are at a disadvantage when it comes to equipment. Our loaves came out of the ovens with a sheen that I have never been able to achieve with my gas oven and various steaming techniques. One press of a button and the deck ovens filled magically with steam which was then vented at just the right moment. The spiral mixer just mixed the heck out of all the doughs while we all stood around with not much to do. What can we do about this? Be jealous. That's it.
Chef Hamelman spent a lot of time testing us on when things were done. Is the dough mixed enough? Proofed enough? Baked enough? He kept a poker face throughout, there were always divergent opinions, and most of us were wrong as often as right. What I did learn is that you can't just knock the bottom of a loaf to see if baking is done. He recommended squeezing, looking, etc. He did not pull out a probe thermometer and check. Glad of that as I fried mine awhile ago and haven't replaced it.
Peels with 8 or 9 loaves of bread on them are really heavy and getting them into the hot oven was too scary for me. I finally took a stab at removing a load, and that was bad enough. Chef Hamelman's assistant was a quite thin and small young woman who was originally a baker in the KA bakery, so some are made of sterner stuff than I. Other than that, the professional baking environment seemed much more manageable to me than I had imagined (see lesson about equipment above.)
Steam matters. I already knew this, but we had a great accidental demonstration. In addition to the 100 or so loaves that got made over the course of the two days, we also made a batch of salt sticks, and a batch of deli rye rolls. These were baked in the same oven as some 80% rye panned loaves - not a deck oven. They came out looking very inedible, as it turned out the steam wasn't hooked up to that oven much to Chef Hamelman's surprise. The loaves made of the same dough that were baked in the deck ovens were burnished and plump as could be. The 80% rye did fine however, as it was very wet, and had the protection of the pans.
Loaves made were a deli rye (best I've ever tasted) the 80% rye pan loaves, a flax seed rye, and a quark rye. We each came home with two of everything but the pan loaves and I immediately wrapped most of it up and froze. My husband who has always expressed an aversion to rye, has been chowing down on the flax seed loaf, and says it is the best loaf I've ever made. Well I didn't really make it in any sense other than shaping it. As my son put it, I paid a lot of money to find out just how much I have yet to learn (and he didn't say it quite as nicely as that.)
Final lesson: if you are going to depend on your phone for picture taking, you have to remember to take the charger.
Hope other participants will post themselves or add to this.
I sign off tired but happy.
-Varda
Update: Rod, a student in the class, kindly sent in his excellent pictures and descriptions for posting:
Jeffrey put whole rye flour on the top surface of the sourdough as much to pay homage to his German mentor and less for environmental control. In pursuit of tradition. This sourdough was developed after 16 hour at room temperature with a plastic wrap cover over the container.
From the French word gémir, to groan. The backbreaking work of the third year apprentice.
So few caraway seeds in the deli rye dough but the flavor was pronounced.
Never far from the mixer.
Applying flour to the outer edge for an artistic flare. It was recommended to perform this task while the dough was still moist and consider using niger seed for a more dramatic effect.
Here is a shot of the quark loaves. Remember how hot they were when we were attempting to determine if they were done. It was easier to compare the color in the loaves in the oven.
Fruits of our labor.
- varda's Blog
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Thank you for sharing your experiences! Wish we could've been there, sounds like a wonderful course.
Hope you are able to take it someday. -Varda
Varda,
Sounds like it was a great experience. Yes, I too pine and covet a REAL baker's oven with steam injection, they don't come cheaply and you have to bake a lot of bread to make them worthwhile. But it's fun to play in the 'BIG' leagues every once in a while. Interesting words regarding starter maintenance. I'll have to be more vigilant with my whole wheat starter. Thanks for all the info.
Linda
I have just given my rye starter its first semi-daily feeding. We'll see if my resolve maintains. Thanks for commenting. -Varda
Hey Varda, what do you mean when you say his rye starter was overpowering? Like sour overpowering, alcoholic vapor or something else entirely?
I think the right adjective to describe the starter is pungent. Not vinegary, and not alcoholy but maybe a combination of sour and fermented. The main thing though is whatever the odor was it was very, very strong. I can smell it in the baked bread, but I wouldn't call the bread sour exactly - it is more complicated than that. This is the place where I just don't have the vocabulary to give a good description. Thanks. -Varda
Both bread and starter sound lovely. Cheers.
Thanks for sharing Varda. I would love to take that course and it sounds like a great experience. Did you learn how to make the starter smell like what you experienced?
Hey Ian, I don't know exactly, but given that my feeding regimen is so different (worse) than his, I would say that's the first place to start. I'll give it a shot minus the mass which I just can't manage. -Varda
Glad we both made it home in the snow. I really enjoyed the class and meeting other TFLers... this was the 3rd I've taken from Jeffrey Hamelman and in contrast to the other two, everybody was pretty experienced so he quickly skipped to a pretty high level.
Hey Otis, A bit dicey on the way back and passed one car that had run completely off the road into a ditch. So careful, careful, careful. I realize I only scratched the surface above, particularly when it came to all his ideas about bread and meaning and so forth. But those are slower lessons absorbed with time. Glad you got that picture. -Varda
We shared a WFO class last spring...sure wish I lived close enough to KA to be a repeat student like you! Sounds like it was another great class w/Jeffrey.
I was just over on your blog the other day... the classes you're teaching sound great!
This was a bit more "serious" than the WFO class. But maybe that's the nature of rye bread... Germans, and all that. WFOers are a breed apart. The new facility is beautiful... you should find a way to get back and take another class.
Take care, Otis
Hi Varda,
Thanks for posting all your insights. Your experience with the care and feeding of starters is is valuable, and it comes on the heels of a couple of other recent threads that talk about the downsides of refrigerated and unfed starters. You've inspired me (at least) to up my feeding schedule to improve the flavor. As for getting a sheen, it is also one of my holy grails in baking. Nice to have the opportunity to work on some professional equipment. Sounds like you had fun.
-Brad
Intimidating but fun. And really aside from the practical lessons, JH had a lot of interesting thing to say about baking and bread. Still mulling them over. -Varda
Varda. Concentrating on rye only had to make the time spent sharply focused and more concise. The rye starter build is something I really fall down on feeding, at most once a week - but do have 3 builds when using it and it gets fairly if not overpoweringly, pungent. Nothing like the smell of a huge pile of it though :-)
Thanks for sharing.
I'm waiting to see if I can get "the smell." We'll see. -Varda
Hi Varda,
Well, now I have oven envy.....I remember Andy (ananda) writing about being spoiled by commercial ovens and how hard it was to use a home oven afterwards. Too bad there aren't any home deck ovens that come close to what you got to use. Oh well, my Cadco does have steam but not really super efficient. I have to turn my oven off for the first 10 minutes of the bake or else all of the steam created is blown out of the vent. (It bakes with convection only) Still, it does work better than all of the other steaming methods I tried prior to purchasing it.
The rye sour sounds heavenly. I imagine it did make a huge difference in the final loaves too. Now that is something that is do-able in a home environment. I don't keep a rye sour as I don't use one all that often. I do feed my ww starter 2x a day and it does live on the counter during the day but is refrig. at night. It does have a nice aroma but, I am sure, nothing like a rye sour. Pretty heady stuff that must have been :-)
Thanks for the write up and I am curious to see if you replicate any of the breads you baked here for us - especially the flax seed one which, I am sure, you will attempt since your husband likes it so much.....but who knows....
Take Care,
Janet
Janet, I'm definitely going to try the flax seed bread. I hope I can get something that at least reminds me of the one we made at KA. My DH has already announced that the 80% rye is too rye-y for him. I'm going to have to identify some 80% rye "customers" so I can try that again. But first I have to make my rye sour healthier, and while I'm at it, my wheat starter as well. I am already trying to work out a new steaming strategy to generate the clouds of steam that I saw at KA. My current approach may be adequate but not good enough. Thanks for commenting. -Varda
Someone posted using one of THESE to introduce steam into your oven. I got one but soon after got the Cadco so I don't have much working experience with it. (Does do a great job cleaning the grout on our kitchen floor though :-) You do need an oven that has a vent available for you to attach the nozzle. It comes with a long flexible hose which makes the reach easier. I have coil top burners on the top of my oven so the vent is within easy reach.
I will be interested to hear what you come up with to create the steam you saw at KA. An oven in the shower :-O
Always a new and fun challenge. Bet the wheels in your mind are turning at a greater speed :-) I know mine would be.
Take Care,
Janet
I'll do anything that hasn't been done before. I just now know what the goal is which is a big cloud of steam that doesn't last that long. I have been concentrating on generating a steamy oven for awhile, but I think I can do better with more concentrated steam up front. Oh, and we have one of those tile cleaner jobbies. But I think I'll find another solution. Thanks. -Varda
How long would you say the steam lasts? If you find a way to achieve what you saw I would love to hear how you do it. I have never gotten a cloud of steam that was visible. Just something I could feel when opening the door.
Janet
When Hamelman was instructing he said that the oven should be full of steam for 5 minutes, then vented. I was surprised at this until I saw the clouds of steam generated in the deck oven. I had been focusing on generating a steamy environment for around half of the bake, and like you, never saw a cloud of steam. Not sure it's possible, but I'll work to that end. -Varda
...steam is, of course, water vapor, which is normally invisible. Think about when relative humidity outside is very high, and unless it is rainy or foggy, you can's see it. What makes it visible is that it comes in contact with something cooler and condenses into microscopic water droplets that reflect light. When a hot oven with the door closed has some sort of steam-generating apparatus inside, there is no visible steam because there is nothing cool inside to cause the vapor to condense, so it remains invisible. When you open the oven door to the much cooler room, you (hopefully) get a blast of steam, although it probably dissipates too quickly to see. Removing the apparatus from the oven to the cooler room will cause the vapor to be visible.
I'm not sure what exactly goes on in a deck oven with a steam injector and why steam is visible in that case. Perhaps the pipe that carries the steam is sufficiently cool to cause condensation, making it visible. Maybe someone with deck oven experience can help with an explanation.
-Brad
with the facts! Anyhow, perhaps I imagined the clouds of steam, or perhaps I saw them when he vented the ovens, or whatever, but my sense was these ovens were a lot steamier than mine has ever been, and given the condition of the crusts and wonderful ovenspring, I'd say that's pretty likely. (Doh! Invisible water vapor. Yes.) -Varda
Varda - the only point of that discourse was to say that you shouldn't expect to see lots of steam in a home oven. And I don't doubt you saw it in the deck oven, I am just trying to think of a reason why.
-Brad
Trying not to condense on Varda's parade... :) The steam point of water at atmospheric pressure is 212F for all practical purposes. As long as the deck oven is about this temp all the water will be vapor and invisible. Steam is visible condensing on the glass doors or leaking out of the doors on the deck ovens that I have used. The temperature does drop at the front of the oven during loading; if it goes below 212F-ish, which it could in the first few inches, vapor would be visible when the oven is steamed. It all dissipates quickly, though. I suppose it would be possible to see steam in an oven if the steam pressure is high enough to exceed the saturation point, however, that is very unlikely in a deck oven. The volume is too big and the steam generators are low pressure, under 30-40 psi.
I, too, struggled with steam generation and maintenance at home. In my hands, the hand held steamer (Eureka 350A) could not generate enough steam fast enough to satisfactorily fill the oven, but it does work well enough to use if an aluminum pan covering the loaf.
I have a GE gas oven at home and, like Janet, I found that the only way to keep any steam was to preheat to 500-525F, turn the oven off, load it as fast as I can, steam (about 8-10 oz water into a preheated 12" cast iron pan on the bottom rack), wait 8-10 mins and turn the oven back on to 450F. The inside air temp drops about 35-50F during loading. I have not measured the temperature drop during the off period, but it is not enough to be a problem. This method creates a huge cloud of steam which is visible, of course, at the top exterior door vents. There don't appear to be any interior door vents that I can block; I am guessing that it leaks through the door gasket.
Deck ovens with steam are better than sex. LOL
Peter, Thanks for describing your steaming method. I just used it for a bake today. I ended up spilling water all over the place, but other than that, it was great. I have a few questions about it. Do you use cold water to go into the pan? Is so, wouldn't it make more sense to pour boiling water in, so you don't have to use the energy/time to heat up the water? And also, why do you turn the oven off? I wasn't clear on that although I did it. As for your final comment, do we really have to choose? -Varda
Here is a pic of my oven & pan. I have the cast iron pan under the baking tiles and pulled out just enough to facilitate pouring water into it and not onto the tiles--which would crack. There is enough space between the rack and the door so that the pan can overhang the rack and not interfere with closing the door.
I pour the water into the pan using a 12-16 oz plastic non-disposable cold drink cup, because that's what I have, it works and is unbreakable. Pour the water carefully and as quickly as you can. Watch out for the steam cloud, it can burn and or crack hot glass and baking tiles/stones; stand to the side of the oven--don't look down over the edge of the pan--and pour from the side. Plus you want to get the door closed as quickly as possible.
As you note, using hot water would create steam faster, cold water would prolong the steaming. I use hot tap water when I remember and cold when I don't... The pan is massive enough to create sufficient steam from 8-10 oz of cold water. If you have a window, you can watch the dough and when the oven spring stops, the oven can be turned back on. It is usually in the 5-8 minute range when the tiles are properly preheated.
I turn my oven off because it is gas, otherwise the burner would come on after loading and the combustion gases (exhaust) would quickly sweep the steam from the oven out through the vents. Electric is less problematic, however, as far as I know, any self cleaning oven, gas or electric, is going to be vented and should benefit from being turned off while steaming. Except for baking under a pan or in a dutch oven, I was unable to maintain enough steam in my oven regardless of the method if I did not turn it off.
Thank you. I also have a GE gas oven. This is very helpful. -Varda
...I meant to write that water (not steam) will crack hot glass or tiles.
Just have to jump in here with a word of warning that you might have already read.
When I was experimenting with steaming methods I ended up burning my face really badly....I had placed the pan on the top shelf after reading that placing it beneath the stone can cool the stone down when the condensation hits it thus effecting the spring...I poured the hot water into the pan and the steam it created ended up burning my face. It did not hurt at the time and I was standing well above the pan and didn't even realize what I had done because there really wasn't a lot of steam created. I developed red areas on my face by my eyes and around my nose and mouth - upper cheek areas too. Took a couple of days to figure it out. While it healed it hurt like crazy and the skin in those areas is still sensitive to heat so I cover my face when around any kind of heat - ie loading my oven or my wood burning stove....It has been over a year since I did this....
SO, use caution :-O
Take Care,
Janet
But whatever, I was there along with Varda and I saw the same thing... clouds of something inside the deck ovens accompanied by a sort of a blast-furnace roaring sound as they were released. And I have seen the same thing in their old ovens which had channels running along the sides to make the steam when water was released into them.
If steam is an invisible vapor then I guess it's not what's moistening the surface of the dough, is it? But if it's airborne and then can condense on the dough rather than just evaporating that's what we want, yes? Also, since the surface of the bread is well below 212 degrees at this point, wouldn't any steam in the air condense on the bread when it comes in contact?
Maybe what we're seeing is the effect when water becomes water vapor then becomes steam, but can be captured by the bread before it evaporates out the vents in the oven?
I apologize if I have confused anyone with terminology. I've heard the roar, too; it is just the steam accelerating out of the ports when the valve is opened. One of the ovens I use whistles when it's steamed. Steam is just water vapor in excess of 212F/100C (at sea level, 1 bar pressure).
Hi Varda,
So I guess my 10 minutes isn't that far off of the mark. I will drop my timing down to 5 and see what happens. Another fun experiment :-)
Does he steam enriched breads? I have read it isn't necessary do to the enrichments keeping the crust more flexible but I do steam mine and it does seem to make a difference in the initial spring that they have.
Thanks for the response.
Janet
Great post, Varda. Very insightful.
I've read a few academic articles on the "microbiota" of sourdough and learnt that favourable microbes (i.e., L. Sanfrancisensis & S. Exiguus) required frequent feedings. So for the past few weeks I've been feeding my starter twice a day---not consistently---but I do my best. And yes, it's a bit of a nuisance, especially if you don't bake often. :)
I'll end this post by saying that I envy you. It's a dream for me to learn from Mr. Hamelman!
Take care and have a happy baking,
Zita
and sometimes it takes a kick from an actual baking ninja to get me to do the right thing. Hoping it pays off in great bread. Thanks, Varda
Learning for experts is an invaluable opportunity, Varda. Lucky you :)
Very inspiring post.
Very interesting. Thank you for sharing this with us, Varda.
haven't seen you in awhile. Thanks for commenting. -Varda
Khalid, I had no idea. Now I do. If I think about it the overriding lessons were 1. engage with your breads - pay attention, and 2. we deserve to eat great bread, so we should learn to make it. But you have to know what great bread is and this weekend was a great push in that direction - more important than learning a bit more about technique. -Varda
Determining the doneness of bread was a big thing when I went to the baguette class. The dough reaching temp happens about 60% through the baking process. My bread has improved since I put down the therometer and paid more attention to the bread and not the temp. I just picked-up one of those hand-held electric steam cleaners to pump steam into my home oven when baking more than one loaf. I have yet to use it though. And my starter has been neglected in the fride for awhile now. Time to pull it out and offer up some TLC.
Did he discuss scoring rye bread before final proofing in the class? I would like to know the pro's and con's if it was brought-up.
Someone did ask the question about scoring rye bread before the proof. We didn't do that in the class and the breads came out really nicely. He suggested trying it to see the difference, and said the theory was the rye would be too fragile after the proof. We didn't score the highest percentage rye, hydration loaf at all. Those were baked in pans. -Varda
Hi Varda, lucky you! Can you describe the feeding regime that J.H. uses? twice a day, ok, but with what hydratation and with what proportions? Does he use wholemeal rye or medium rye? It's unfortunate that D.H. doesn't appreciate rye:(
Thanks,
Nico
Nico, I was kicking myself for not asking that question. He was very casual about it, just saying they always held something back. My sense was that for the morning bake they used the starter and withheld some and fed, and then fed again at night. I believe he said they don't throw anything out. If you look at his book, he withholds around 3% of rye starter and uses that same amount as the seed for the next build. Hydration for his ryes is between 80-83%, and starters are maintained at the same hydration. He used whole rye (a pretty fine grind) for several of the breads, and medium rye for the 80% rye loaf. He said he just threw in the medium for variety's sake. For wheat starters he seems to be withholding around 10%. My guess is these considerations are a bit of a detail compared with putting your starter on a regular feeding regimen instead of waiting for a bake. Oh, and DHs can be ornery creatures. Will have to remember to bake some white. Thanks for commenting. -Varda
Varda, if you don't mind I have one more question. How thick is Hamelman's starter? Mine ferments well only at an hydratation of at least 125%, otherwise it's so thick that it tears when stirring. Does his starter stir easily at 80-83% hydratation?
Nico, See the picture above of the ripened starter. It is not liquid by any means. And if I recall correctly, it was mixed rather than stirred. The rye was quite finely milled. I have been remilling the stuff I buy as it is a much coarser grind. Hope that helps. -Varda
Very interesting, Varda. Thanks for sharing.
-Floyd (sneaking out to go feed my neglected starter now)
Glad yours will get a good meal. -Varda
I have a rye starter that hasn't seen the light of day for about 6 months!!
(That's your starter crying out in its little cold dark container.)
Hi Varda,
Thank you for posting about your experiences, and so quickly too.
Appreciation of the benefits of a spiral mixer and witnessing the powers of a leaven used to raise so many loaves of bread day-in, day-out offers fantastic learning opportunities to the homebaker. I can only wonder about the other information imparted by your course instructor and how that will embed itself into your future baking
All good wishes
Andy
Hi Andy,
I find that if I don't report quickly on something, then I might as well not at all, as somehow what I want to say deteriorates quickly as I move on to other things. JH spent a fair amount of time talking about technical aspects of bread making - baker's math, dough temperature and so forth. He also talked a lot about formula development, and what needs adjusting as you change one thing or another. Quite interesting.
What was most interesting to me and what I'm still mulling over is what I guess I would call his attitude to bread and baking. I'm not sure exactly what he said, but he made it clear that baking bread is very important, and that there is no settling for ok bread or even good bread - you should do your best to make great bread, and not make any excuses about it.
He asked a question late in the day about which loaf the baker should take home - the worst loaf or the best loaf of the day. I (and several others) said the worst loaf as you should try to sell as much as you could. As always he was keeping his poker face so we wouldn't know what he thought. Then he asked his assistant (Amber) the question and she was trying to tell him that she would also take the worst loaf, but that she knew he would say the best loaf because he thought the baker deserved to eat the best bread. He misheard her and thought that she was saying she would take the best loaf rather than just restating his opinion. That made him very happy. This question obviously meant a lot to him. At one point he said something like the baker is doing public service by feeding people, and that's good for society.
He was also trying to get across that we needed to be engaged with the bread with all our senses to understand when it was good and when not. At one point he was asking us if a particular loaf was well enough baked. Larry rapped the bottom and it sounded hollow so I said I thought it was done. He wouldn't move on though, until I reached out and touched the loaf, as I wasn't being sufficiently engaged. Then he popped the loaf back in the oven to bake some more.
He was very casual about certain things. When I asked him why he didn't put the doughs in the proofer, he just shrugged me off. And other things obviously mattered a great deal to him. He emphasized trying things to see if they were better methods. And he knew about Fresh Loaf and said that he thought good things would come from it, as it is a laboratory for innovation.
Thank you for asking.
-Varda
Varda, having taken three classes with JH and heard similar messages, I think his attitude grows out of the very traditional German/eastern European appreciation of bread's place in society. Remember he mentioned that soldiers used to be paid in bread and they had baggy trousers so there was a place to put the bread. The baker's role was literally to feed people and keep them nourished so they could work productively and justify their place in a feudal society. While he doesn't want us to go back to those days (I hope!) he wants us to respect the importance the baker has traditionally held so we can feel proud of our work and dedicate ourselves to it.
As to the proofer, I got into a side conversation with Faith at that point about putting light bulbs in coolers so didn't realize he didn't address the issue with you. Since everything at KAF is temperature controlled they would not seem to need a proofer as long as everything goes according to schedule. You will just have to take another class to get clarification of this issue! Otis
what you are saying. I remember reading a story in the only college French class I took, where a baker's wife left him for another man, and the whole town had to work on bringing her back so the baker would start making bread again. Can't remember what it was, and I think it went over my head at the time, but the teacher patiently explained that it wasn't about morality, it was about the common good. As for the proofer, I just asked him if they had one or not, and he said of course. So I asked him why he wasn't using it, and he just shrugged. Of course the bread came out great, so he was right that we didn't need it. -Varda
That story you read in college sounds similar to the movie La Femme du Boulanger.
I lost that book of stories years ago. I see that the movie Femme du Boulanger was taken from was a novella, Jean Bleu, so if that is the right one then Jean Bleu was probably the guy the baker's wife ran off with. I doubt my French is still good enough to be able to read it though. -Varda
I would love to add to your post but, I now have the flue and it is kicking my butt. the thought of his starter or the smell of rye bread is putting me over the edge. So I will add to this once my stomach can handle the topic.
Faith, I hope you feel better soon, and would love to hear your thoughts and see your pictures whenever you are up for it. -Varda
Varda, what a great post and thread followup. It seems that the challenge of rye inspires us to learn more and more. I am trying to achieve a great deli rye for my new cottage food business and am now in the midst of trying Nancy Silverton's "Izzy's NY Rye" from her La Brea bread book. She has a 3-stage starter made in two days after the first day of an initial rye starter. I have been maintaining a rye starter for awhile but, like you, simply don't feed it every day, just when I'm preparing to bake my fave, (yes, Hamelman's) pain au levain with mixed starters. So I revived my starter with two feedings and have just finished feeding Silverton's 3-stage, 2nd day starter. I was thinking of cheating and going on to make the bread tomorrow, but now that I've read your post, I'm going to stick with her complete 3-day regimen, 3 feedings again tomorrow and bake the following day. What's noticeable with her starter is that the water amount is double the rye flour amount, so it's not the usual uber thick, sticky mass but rather a thick soup. It smells tangy, but I doubt that it has the overpowering smell of Hamelman's starter that you describe. It bubbles up nicely in 4-5 hours. The third stage is supposed to ferment overnight at room temp (around 58 deg. F here), "8-12 hours, no more than 15." There's no refrigeration of the starter at all (David Snyder, referring to Greenstein's rye, told me it's best not to refrigerate the starter as well). For the short fermentation times during the day, I've been putting it in the oven with the light on and the door slightly ajar, which seems about right. I'll have to wait and see how this bread turns out (high hopes). I also have tried to make a medium rye by sifting (fine mesh) my whole rye flour for the third stage; I was surprised to see a nice little residue of rye bran in the sieve. I'm going to try to get some kolinji (chernushka) seeds at the Indian market (never tried that before) to add to the caraway seeds (I'll grind some caraway for the dough in my spice grinder). In the final dough, there's 13 oz. of rye flour and 19 oz. of high gluten or bread flour, plus 20 oz. of rye starter (Silverton doesn't deal in grams), so that's a lot of rye. I'll use white rye in the dough and have been using whole (and my "medium") rye in the starters; she says she used whole rye in starters and white rye in the dough (big discussion with Izzy Cohen, who inspired the original recipe). If it comes out well, I'll post it. I have made the old-school Jewish deli rye from ITJB several times, but the time before the last, it didn't have much oven spring. I think the problem was a long first rise instead of just bench rest for 15-20 minutes, and, in the bake, I probably left the steam apparatus (a towel routine similar to Sylvia's) in too long. Like Hamelman, Silverton steams (suggests spritzing )-; ) for just the first 5 minutes; I'll use the towels. And--she says to dock the loaves by "pressing a wet finger 1 inch into the center of the top. Like a cut with a razor . . .this prevents the bread from cracking open during baking."
How lucky you are, Varda, to have learned from the master baker himself. Maybe someday . . . I can dream, can't I? Oh, I almost forgot--in the 2nd edition of Bread, he says you can forego the ice water bath after boiling bagels "if baking a batch that fits in one oven." I remember you rinsing bagels in cold water instead when you taught a bagel class.
Thanks so much for sharing your experience with us--so inspiring!
Joy
what you are up to Joy. How is your business going? I have been feeding my rye and wheat starters twice daily for the last few days, and it's like having a pet. I am dead tired and want to go to bed, and then remember - time to feed the starters. We'll see how well I do with it over time. Hope to see your new bread when it comes out. -Varda
So are you feeding your mother starters by building them up twice a day or throwing out part of the starter each time and refreshing?
except not throwing out. I have a little bin in the refrigerator where I keep the discard. Yesterday I made crackers with them. The taste was delicious. Texture still needs work. Mass effect or no, I am keeping very small amounts of starter going (around 50 grams) for each wheat and rye. I'll build up volume when I'm ready to make bread. We are still going through the loaves from the KA class so I'm giving myself a baking break. -Varda
Wow....that seems like a lot of work...let me know if it is worth it. I keep a YW starter and my AP starter and convert over to rye or whole wheat over 2-3 builds as needed. Don't know if I have the patience to do what you are attempting.
On another note, I am very curious about his thoughts on when a loaf is actually done. I use an instant read thermometer and I find it works just fine, but I would love to know what the Professor has to say about this and if it is something I could incorporate into my procedures.
I find I get very good oven spring and a dark crust more times than not by using 1 cup of boiling water in the bottom of a heavy duty baking sheet that I place on the lowest shelf. I use 1 baking stone on the second lowest level and another on the top. I would love to experience what you have using the steam injected ovens to see what the real difference is. We should all put our minds together and come up with a home steam injector method we could sell that would work on any oven. Maybe I could retire early.....right now I think I will be greeting people at Wal-mart when I'm ready to retire :).
if you count it, but that's more than zero which is what I'd usually spend on a day where I wasn't planning to bake the next one.
The Hamelman school of loaf doneness includes squeezing (a hot loaf - these guys have no feeling in their hands anymore) smelling (for carmelization of the crust I guess) looking inside the score cuts to make sure it's not too white down there. He kept putting loaves back in the oven that I thought were done.
So the great home steam injection oven? Doesn't seem impossible does it? These deck ovens are stacked up to the ceiling. What about just one of them for home use. Same technology. I'm guessing that they are fussy and require a lot of service, so not quite the thing for a home oven. I guess I'll meet you at Walmart.
and yes... lurking here often... :) Maybe he can tell doneness also by loaf weight. If it feels to heavy, it hasn't lost enough water weight yet. ??? Did Master H lift the bread before deciding to bake it longer?
But he was all over that bread, so maybe so. -Varda
full days building the 'Italian white starter' for authentic panettone which is a similar starter endeavor, I had stored enough left over levain builds to bake 5 (or more) large loaves of bread of 1,000 g each afterward. It had to total over 1,000g of discard. I'm not complaining because all of the resulting breads came out fantastic but it took nearly 3 weeks at my normal baking, of 2 breads a week, to get rid of it all. Perhaps that is what I should do all the time, at least the starter will be built to ramming speed every 3 weeks but, right now, my 80 g of full strength starter at 65 % hydration lasts about that long before refreshing and - no muss, no fuss with the leftovers. The resulting bread is also fine.
If I baked every day, say 2 loaves a day, I would certainly consider the master baker J. Hamelman's starter maintenance method and schedule but I might use some 'old dough' too after the recent test bake :-)
It is great there are so many ways to do the necessary bread things that can fit any baking and baker situation and circumstance. Baking would be more difficult otherwise for all of us and, since I am already Wal-Mart bound, I don't need more pesky difficulties :-)
I like the cracker idea too. Next panettone - we will have to try out some crackers - 5 times.
Happy baking
I made pain au levain yesterday with my twice daily fed white starter and it was the best I've ever done - absolutely fantastic. We spend all of this work trying to make good bread. A bit more effort and you have great bread.
I can tell you what not to do with discard starter. Do not add a bit of flour to tighten it up, then some salt, then treat it like a regular dough. That one went out for the coyotes double quick. Might as well have just thrown out the discard.
when your oven is hot? (pppp?) pour out a little bit on a parchment (like you say don't tighten it up) salt, seed, flour dust it to make a skin, raise or not raise it and nuke it to "spring" it, finish drying and browning in the oven or fry pan as a cracker. :)
but first going back to my "recipe" that I tried the other day. First of all mixed white and rye starter discards refrigerated over a few days. Add olive oil, salt, a bit of water and a bit of flour. Mix it up. BF until puffy. Roll out thin with a rolling pin on parchment. Brush with OO, sprinkle with salt and seeds. Cut into parallelograms with a pizza cutter. Bake. Hope it works this time without someone breaking a tooth. -Varda
On another thread Stan Ginsberg just posted that there is no such thing as medium rye - it is whole rye and the term medium is just a marketing ploy / term and nothing more. I guess sometimes well thought out logic in bread making is exactly the wrong thing to do :-)
Nice writeup Varda, thanks.
One question. Did you nick some of KA's JH starter while you were there?
Wild-Yeast
WY, I was just too slow on my feet taking it all in, so when he offered the leftovers things moved on too quickly for me to take some. Thanks for commenting. -Varda
It was an exciting experience and I learned a lot. Thanks for checking in. -Varda
Hi Varda,
It is so good to read about your rye breads class, and see the photos.
Reading your description of what was covered takes me back. I am very grateful for Mr. Hamelman's teaching, and lessons about starter maintenance; seeing (and experiencing the aroma of) a healthy, robust rye starter
was invaluable to me.
I am so glad you had the opportunity to take this class, and to enjoy those beautiful, flavorful breads!
:^) breadsong
Me too. Thanks so much breadsong. -Varda
Me too, Varda! I made Hamelman's pain au levain with mixed starters yesterday (my go-to bread) and I had the same result! The best ever! And I have you to thank for initiating this discussion about feeding starter 2 x day. I never paid attention to Hamelman's discussions re. starters in Bread (2nd edition replacing the 1st that was falling apart) but now I am studying them! And my new mindset: We don't have a dog or a cat (just 2 little guppies in an aquarium), just my two starter pets, which need and deserve food like any other pets. Now to use at least some of that discard! (I may try Mini's cracker trick above.) I keep the starters in Kilner jars, covered with a linen tea towel we got in Australia (all the aboriginal figures on the cloth seem to add energy to the jars). New permanent fixture on the countertop.
And, yes, I have pics of the La Brea "Izzy's NY rye" bake, which I shall post as soon as time permits. The bread was surprisingly easy to shape, and it rose, proofed, baked, cooled and appeared just as Silverton indicated. As for taste, well, I'd say it was good but not great. Of course I didn't exactly follow instructions to the letter, as I'll explain in my posting (soon, soon). But it was such a worthwhile experience. I'm searching for a rye to match Brent's deli rye (in Northridge, CA), which we used to bring home (what was left at the table plus a purchase at the counter). Onward! Thanks again, Varda! --Joy
Hi again, Varda,
Just saw your posting on crackers from discards. What's "BF until puffy"? How did they turn out?
To respond to your prior query, yes, business is going well. The first two weeks were super busy (10 orders, two items per order--I'm offering 7 items, probably too many to start but I got carried away), now it's slowing down a bit (that's OK 'cause hubby and I had bad colds last week, and I used the time to play with rye). I think it's important to keep up the contacts and do things like food fairs, etc. (a Jewish arts and crafts/food festival coming up in April, so maybe a booth). Starting a business has pushed me to keep improving and learning. Love it!
Joy
Joy, BF until puffy - means bulk ferment but I could as easily have said "leave on counter until dough puffs up (that took around 2.5 hours.) My crackers were fine but not quite there yet. Needs work, and perhaps some research on how this really should be done. Great to hear what you are doing. -Varda
Well this is the first day that I have been able to stay awake for more then 15 minutes at a time. Slept 5 days almost straight , lost 20 lbs, had not eaten in that 5 days and drinking was a forced issue. I've had some crazy fever induced dreams about bread. Still the thought of baked goods makes me queasy. I hope that will go away soon.
Let me add a few pictures here. Varda has been doing such a great job covering the topics covered...between her clear descriptions and my memory of taste and smell of the dough and bread...it's really making me ill.
I think what I took from that class was a point of reference. You can take all the words and pictures of dough and still be guessing what it should look, feel, and taste like. Reaching in that mixer and tasting the dough and giving it a tug, forming a loaf and feeling it's consistency gave me a reference that I was needing. I now know my brand of rye four does not absorb as much water as Hamelman's so my hydration was way off. Now I know I need to adjust for that.
I also appreciated his taking a moment to discuss the many types of rye flour. I have been confused in the past primarily in the "gray line" of difference between "dark rye" and "whole rye" flours. Hamelman suggests to stay away from the dark rye flour.
Enough for now...nap time.
hah! You certainly put to rest the question of "can you really see clouds of steam" (or whatever it is), Faith. Feel better soon... sounds like you got hit by a freight train of a virus! Otis
Why does he suggest to stay away from dark rye flours? I use KAF pumpernickel flour all the time.
Hope you feel better soon.
Ian
Sorry you are still sick, and thanks for posting your pictures. They add a lot to this running documentary. GET WELL SOON! -Varda
Pumpernickel is a whole rye four and is recommended.
This is where I had the same confusion because mills don't have any standards as to what is what. Let me try to explain without pictures.
Take a rye berry and give it layers such as an onion. If you mill just the center of that berry you get "light rye flour"(low ash and little nutritional value). The next layer outward "medium rye flour" (higher ash and better nutritional value). Every layer outward increases in ash and nutrition. Next layer out is the "dark rye flour" This is just the very outside of the berry so it has all the bran and the outer layer and does not have any of the inner layers. The "whole rye flour" is as it is stated the whole berry ground.
Hamelman stated the the dark rye flour is difficult to work with and does not taste very good.
Pumpernickel, rye meal, chops, rolled rye are all make of whole rye berry.
Think I got them all.
Thanks for the explanation.
Makes sense now.
http://wholegrainscouncil.org/whole-grains-101/types-of-rye
I'm late to the party, but I intentionally saved my reading of your report until I could give it the attention it deserves.
You make me really want to take that class, even though I live about as far from New Hampshire as one can and still be in the contiguous 48. My own experience at the SFBI convinced me that there is no substitute for face-to-face learning with a great baker and teacher, as Mr. Hamelman clearly is.
Hamelman's strong advocacy for frequent starter feedings (and I assume this applies to all starters, not just rye sours) is justified, I'm sure. But it is hard to pull off twice daily feedings, even if not working outside the home, if you are baking only a couple times per week. I will follow your efforts to do this with interest.
On a related subject, did Mr. Hamelman have anything to say about the volume of starter/sour having an impact on bread flavor? The instructors at the SFBI felt that one needed to keep it at at least 350 or 400 g to achieve a balanced flavor. This was said of a wheat flour starter. I don't know how it applies to rye.
I'm looking forward to your assessment of your breads made with pampered sour.
David
David, I think you would love this class, or anything else taught by JH. He left a lot of time for questions, and I ran out of things to ask. Of course I thought of a bunch more when the class was over. But if you head to New Hampshire you will have gone one state too many. It's only in Vermont - much closer to you.
He did say that there is a mass effect for starter. Undoubtedly there is. I am acting under the presumption that keeping the yeast and bacteria alive and happy instead of ailing in an acid bath will have a greater impact than building much more starter than one can practically use. In fact, I am maintaining tiny quantities of both my rye and wheat starters - 12g seed, 20g flour, 16g water for the rye sour, and 12g seed, 20g flour, 13g water for the white starter. It has not been difficult to add this feeding schedule. A few minutes in the morning and a few minutes at night. But the proof is in the baking (so to speak) and so we'll see. Thanks for commenting. -Varda
My apologies to Vermont.
Keeping a small amount of starter and feeding twice a day would provide an interesting comparison to my current routine of keeping a refrigerated starter and refreshing it with 2 or 3 feedings before making bread.
David
Thanks for putting this together! It was great to finally meet some TFL'ers after years of messaging.
Two days baking with Jeffrey is a soul-rejuvenator!
Larry
Yes indeed. It was great to meet you Larry. Strange to know people but have never seen them. -Varda
I did make the switch from a similar routine (starter in fridge, refreshed a couple of days, twice daily, before baking) to feeding twice a day every day even if not baking. I was feeding white and rye. Well, when I made my go-to pain au levain w/ mixed starters (Hamelman formula), the bread was beautiful, had great oven spring, good grigne, good color, smelled great (that sweet-wheat carmelized fragrance). But, when we sliced it hours later, the usual tang was missing. The flavor was flat. I posted my question, and MANNA answered saying that it probably was the change in starter routine. I'm beginning to believe she's right. The starter formerly developed more acid, had more "sour," more "tang." We liked it that way. So I'm back to the old routine. It's in the fridge now, and I'll refresh a couple of days before baking. Oh yes, same thing with Silverton's "Izzy's NY rye": flat flavor even though all the physical properties were beautiful. I haven't had time to post pictures and description, but the dough handled beautifully, took shape easily and just as she described, had cracked ("Like old porcelain") crust as it cooled. But it tasted flat. Her formula required three days of rye build. So what's going on here?
Joy
Manna nailed it. The shorter refreshement schedule (2x daily) doesn't give the lactobacillus bacteria (LAB) enough time to regenerate the two acids, lactic and acetic, that are primarily responsible for the tang that you desire. Also, by refreshing you are removing some of the acid in the starter that you don't use in the refreshment. You have a couple of choices: extend your refreshment cycle (refrigeration also favors the acid production--the LAB are more active at the lower temps than the yeast cells) and or do an elaboration when you decide to bake. The latter is taking all the starter, doubling (for 100% hydration) it by adding 1 part flour, 1 part water and doing that twice before you bake at 4-12 hour intervals depending on how active your starter is--which is dependent on your yeast & bacteria populations, temperature, salt concentration (if any) to name three variables.
I ran into this same issue with my pain au levains when I started making Pandoro breads and changed my routine to accommodate them. I use a 24 hr cycle for maintenance, my room temp during the winter ranges from 60-68F depending on the time of day. I have been baking milder sourdoughs lately so my last refresh is only 6-8 hrs before mixing. I like the shorter cycle, no refrigeration, because my starter is generally more active and has greater leavening power, i.e. shorter fermentation times.
If your dough is still too mild after a three day build, you likely have an LAB defficient starter.
There is a lot of info about this in many other threads on the freshloaf, notably Debra Wink's fantastic explanations (search on her name and starter and they will pop up).
for confirming what Manna suggested and I suspected. I appreciate your explanation as well as the reference to Debra Wink (the microbiologist). The 24-hour maintenance sounds appropriate, as the ambient temp. in my kitchen has approximately the same range as yours (65 to even lower through the night, about 56F., which makes me think the starter didn't have enough warmth/time to fully develop). BTW, when I prepare the final rye preferment for pain au levain w/ mixed starters, I place the bowl of starter in my B&T proofer set at 70F (Hamelman's recommended temp.) and give it at least 12-13 hours, sometimes more. I just threw out my aged rye starter and begain a new one with a nicely active white one. The rye looked pretty "dead," so it may have been contaminated or LAB deficient.
Sure wish I had chemistry in high school!
Joy
Thank you so much for this post Varda. It must have been such a pleasure to be in the presence the master himself at work.
This post could not have come at a better time for me. I am currently fermenting my rye sour from last night and ready to bake today. Some good tips to keep in mind for today's bake!
John
Good luck with your rye. -Varda
Thank you Varda. A bit off topic on this post, however can you please help me on my recent post topic on rye preferment time?
I would appreciate it! I am in panic mode.
John