Leaven
- 20g starter @ 100% hydration
- 100g water
- 15g light rye flour*
- 85g all purpose flour
Ferment @ 29C (84F) for 9 hrs.
Sponge
- All of the leaven
- 250g water
- 250g bread flour (12.4% protein)
Allow to sponge @ 28C (82F) for 3 hours.
Main Dough
- All of the sponge
- 65g water
- 250g bread flour (12.4% protein)
Autolyse for 20 mins. Now add:
- 10g salt
Knead until gluten moderately to well developed. You need to have the gluten fairly well developed because the bulk ferment is very short. One hour bulk with folds at 20 and 40 mins respectively. Pre-shape. Rest 5. Shape. Place in cloth-lined banneton. Three-quarter proof.(About 1.5 hours). Retard in fridge for 7 - 9 hours. Remove from fridge and allow to final proof (about 1 hour).
Pre-heat oven to 230C (450F). Slash. Load onto baking stone. Immediately reduce heat to 205C (400F), convection off. Bake for 20 mins with steam. Remove steaming appartatus when the top of the bread starts to show signs of colour. Reduce heat to 190C (375F), convection on. Bake a further 25- 30 mins. (You might have to experiment with baking temps/times. I baked this at a lower temp than I usually do for my regular sourdoughs. You don't want to have a deeply caramelized crust like for that of a miche, but rather a reddish-brown crust with nice blistering).
Notes
- hydration is 69%
- for the leaven build I use a very light rye with all the bran removed (for all practical purposes, this is an all-white loaf)
- this loaf improves with flavour on the second day and gets sourer
Taste
It has a distinct but, what I would categorize as, mild sour flavour. This was my third attempt at this recipe and was the least sour of the three. This could be, in part, due to the fact that the weather was slightly cooler and the temperatures were slightly lower than the temperatures when I first formulated this recipe. It could also be due to the fact that I changed the composition of flours. Despite the open looking nature of the crumb shot, it was actually quite firm to the bite. This is undoubtedly the result of the high protein flour. The crust was chewy, too.
Previous attempts
On my first attempt I used 11.4% protein flour for both the sponge and the main dough. I also gave it a 50 min autolyse and added 3g of diastatic malt. The main dough was very sour tasting and got sticky quickly. I attribute this to too much enzymatic activity and the enzymes breaking down the gluten. The resultant loaf had a rather low profile and a moderate to strong sour flavour.
On my second attempt I considered using the same flour but lowering the hydration to counter some of the stickiness. Instead, I kept the hydration the same and used a higher protein flour for the main dough. The result was similar to the first attempt although the main dough wasn't as sticky. The profile was still rather low, though.
For this try, I ditched the diastatic malt, reduced the autolyse to 20 mins and used a 12.4% protein level flour for both the sponge and the main dough. This resulted in the best profile but the mildest flavour of the three.
I want to work on this one a little more. For my next attempt I want to keep everything the same but let it proof for only an hour in the bannetton, then give it double the time (about 16 hours) in the fridge. I am hoping this will get me where I want to be: a moderately sour, chewy loaf with a reddish-brown, blistered crust.
Finally, a different angled view of the whole boule (and a gratuitous crumb shot) for Varda, lest she again accuse me of minimalism (or was it brevity)? :)
Syd
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Lovely clear crumb, Syd. I also found adding diastatic malt make dough sticky, so I've stopped using it. Now my large-ish stock of diastatic malt finds its way to boiling water for bagels. :p
Thanks Lumos. It seems it might well have been the diastatic malt. It may also have been proteolytic enzymes activated by the low pH. (Debra Wink mentions this phenomenon somewhere in this post). Strange, though, because this is the first time I have ever associated this problem with the malt. I usually add it at a rate of 0.3 - 0.6 %.
Syd
could you post cups and tablespoons amounts not into metric as yet
thank you
chefscook
Chefscook, I apologize. This may not be accurate but I will try my best.
Leaven
Ferment @ 29C (84F) for 9 hrs.
Sponge
Allow to sponge @ 28C (82F) for 3 hours.
Main Dough
Autolyse for 20 mins. Now add:
Best,
Syd
Syd, I find your pictures to be extremely tasteful and not gratuitous at all. Your bread looks delicious. I see you have used a three stage method which I don't think I've seen before for this type of bread. I'm so glad you've added to your collection of posts. I'm unlikely to make your squid ink bread, but have enjoyed many of the others. And am looking forward to trying this one. -Varda
I always look forward to your comments Varda and I like teasing you! Now if you start taking me seriously, I will have to call you Sylvia again. :)
The three stage process I borrowed from my post on my first sourdough recipe. It produces a lovely flavour with a mild tang and I thought I could enhance that tang by extending the times and increasing the temperatures. I still have to experiment some more, though.
Best,
Syd
Lovely boule, Syd! Those blisters on the crust caught my eye immediately! Beautiful golden colour to boot.
You've probably also followed David's on-going SF SD quest? He has posted some very interesting formulas with a long (and partly refrigerated) elaboration of the starter itself, in addition to long fermentation/proof of the dough afterwards. Perhaps some tweaks along those lines could help you bake loaves like this with a lower protein flour?
Once again, looks great, Syd!
Thanks Hansjoakim. Yes, I think it is the reddish brown crust and the blisters that almost define a San Francisco sourdough. Of course, it needs to be sour, too!
It was David's quest that got me started on the whole San Francisco sourdough thing. I got hung up on the original formula he posted in his first post. It also appears in the Handbook of Dough Fermentation, Chapter 6. I think I had five tries at that recipe and, like David, was disappointed with the results. Eventually, I threw in the towel and went this route.
Best,
Syd
David
Thanks David! It was your quest that got me started on this project. As I said to Hansjoakim in the post above, I got hung up on that original formula that you posted in your first post. Try as I may, I couldn't get that recipe to work. My copy of it comes from the Handbook of Dough Fermentations. For all practical purposes, it seems the same as the one you posted sans the temperatures. I think, in the end, I had five shots at it, but not one of them remotely hit the target. I even bought an inexpensive, hand-held, digital pH meter and made sure that the pH of the starter was 3.9 before mixing the main dough. It still produced a bread with little to no sour at all.
Best,
Syd
Looking good Syd,
That loaf has a really pretty crumb plus the crust colour is fantastic. Looking forward to seeing your next bake.
Cheers,
Phil
Thanks Phil. The crumb looks open but actually it has a chewy mouthfeel to it. This is due to the high protein flour used. Thanks for your comment.
Best,
Syd
Syd,
I was wondering when this loaf would go public :-)
Your photos are great - especially the first shot showing the blisters, your great scoring and lovely crust color.
I use both diastatic malt and non-diastatic malt in breads and they do end up being a bit sticky so I use a minimal amount - can't recall the % off of the top of my head but I do have on tucked away somewhere....
I know that using non diastatic malt as a sweetener gives the loaf a malty flavor and it doesn't compete with the yeast for water the way other sweeteners do. To me, it seems like a more 'natural' sweetener for bread but then there is the stickiness to contend with.
Thanks for the post :-)
Take Care,
Janet
Thanks Janet! Ha, ha! It has taken a while to post. In my defence, however, I only get to bake once a week and sometimes only once every second week. Also, I don't always take photos. It's either I get too engrossed in the process and forget about the pictures, or my hands are full of flour and I couldn't be bothered. :) I use diastatic malt at a rate of about 0.3-0.6% of the total flour weight. Lovely to hear from you Janet.
Best,
Syd
In my book, good things are well worth waiting for :-)
I completely get the 'engrossed' piece :-0 Happens all the time here but I am usually forgetting things like cooking dinner for the kids or doing laundry or........the list is long and most of it is happily forgotten :-)
Your rates for DM have a familiar ring to them...
Janet
Beautiful, Syd. Mind if I throw it up on the home page for a bit?
-Floyd
Thanks Floyd! I would be honoured. Would you be throwing it up from Vancouver, then?
Best,
Syd
We spent last week in Vancouver apartment hunting but I am back in Oregon at the moment.
The good news is that our trip was tremendously successful. I've been meaning to do an update for folks, but we've been so busy decluttering and preparing for the "garage sale to end all garage sales" that I've barely been online after work. So, yes, while I'm putting this post up from Oregon, indeed I'll likely be taking it down from Vancouver. :)
-Floyd
This is a beautiful looking loaf, Syd. Congratulations on a well-deserved starring role on the homepage!
Janie
Thanks Janie! :)
Best,
Syd
Profile, colour, crust, crumb, it's all there Syd, a splendid loaf, no two ways about it, but I fully understand the 'need to tweak' being it's the most interesting and fun aspect of what we do as bakers. In terms of appearance I can't imagine your SF Sourdough looking better than this lovely example of yours. It's all personal preference of course, but "moderately sour" doesn't describe the SF Sourdoughs I've enjoyed in San Francisco over the years. They have always been the sharpest tasting white breads I've ever had. Maybe we need something like the Scoville Scale (for measuring heat in peppers) to measure sour in breads and give us a better reference point for levels of sour. Great looking bread and interesting post Syd!
All the best,
Franko
Thanks Franko. I always look forward to your comments. :) Yes, you are quite right. It needs to be more sour. It seems really difficult, though, to make a very sour all-white sourdough, especially one with a high profile. I am happy with the appearance. Now I just want a little more sour!
Best,
Syd
Hi Syd,
I think the place to start is by building a stiff starter over the course of a week or so and letting the pH rise till it's very tangy, then build a lively stiff leaven from that over a 36 hour period, and use it for leavening, skipping the sponge, which I think may be the culprit for a diluted sour flavour and proceed as per.
Best to you as always Syd,
Franko
Very Nice profile on this SD, Syd! As Janet, i also like the blisters. Your scoring is very good too.
Nice work. Franko is right, the liquid starter should be really sour before switching to the stiff. As it is, your SD looks beautiful, inside out.
Thanks Khalid. I found out early that you don't want to score this loaf too deep. The structure gets quite delicate after the long proofing times and, perhaps, also from the high pH, so if you slash too deep, it will pancake out.
Lovely to hear from you as always,
Syd
Lovely lookiing loaf - love the colour!
S
Thanks Salilah!
Best,
Syd
SFSD. 69% hydration and tiniest bit of rye in the leaven, bread flour and 8 hr retard sounds like a winner with a mild sour taste Syd. very nice bread.
Thanks dabrownman. I am pretty pleased with it so far. It has a nice wheaty taste. All-white loaves can be so boring but this one isn't. It is also pretty hassle free. It doesn't require much work; just time. I have been able to fit this one into my schedule pretty easily (one of the most important criteria for me when it come to deciding what to bake)!
Best,
Syd
Hello Syd,
What a gorgeous boule!
Beautiful blistered crust, great scoring, perfect crumb.
:^) breadsong
Thanks breadsong! Always so nice to hear from you. Thanks for your compliments.:)
All the best,
Syd
Hi Syd,
Great looking loaf of bread.
This formula is very similar to that which I use. We go for very sour and stage bread over three days starting with a levain(12 hours), mix and straight in the retader for overnight bulk fermentaion (12 hours), then shape, 3/4 proof(3-4 hours) and then another 12 hours in the retarder befoer baking. I call it the super sour.
Another method while developing our sour that I might have preferred and you might like to try is to retard the levain after 4 hours on the floor for 12 hours. When I did this we got more tang allong with the rich buttery notes. Wasn't sour enough fory my people though so I pushed on to find the previous protocol.
I'd share photos but evertime I try I get lost.
Happy baking
Josh
I really like your process for its simplicity. It looks very well-suited for a home baking environment. For example: Activate starter Thurs. evening. Friday morning, Mix dough. Retard dough immediately. Divide and shape Friday evening. Proof 3-4 hours, then retard until Saturday morning when you bake the loaves.
A few detail questions:
1. How often do you feed your starter?
2. Do you keep a liquid or firm starter?
3. Is your levain liquid or firm?
4. Do you retard at 50-54 dF or at 40 dF?
5. How big a difference do you think retardation temperature makes?
Thanks for sharing your procedure. I believe I am going to use it next time I make my SF-style SD.
David
Thanks Josh and thanks for posting your method. I will most certainly try it out. So that is straight into the retarder without any floor time, then? At what temperature do you retard? I like the schedule David has outlined using your process. It would fit into my day very well. Would love to see your photos. If you need help posting, check out this thread.
Best,
Syd
These times are a bit off and I've updated this process correctly down below. Appologies
Syd, Looking this over, I think you mean add the final ingredients to the sponge and autolyse. But just want to make sure. -Varda
Thanks for pointing that out Varda. That is exactly what I meant. I changed it in the original post.
Best,
Syd
My process was an evolution as I took over the bread program of a bakery. Since all we were going to use our mother for was batches of sour I opted to try making a starter that lived in the retarder thus needing less feeding (once a day) creating less waste and work to keep up with a floor starter needing three feedings a day. This turned out with wonderful results. I feed once a day at the same time every day, let sit at room temp for 2-4 hours (pending temperature of kitchen) and then retarder for 20 hours until next feeding. I use extra starter after feeding to build the levain (so when I say extra I mean starter that was fed 20+ hours ago.
The levain is made 60% starter, 100% HP Flour (95% HP 5% Rye), 100% water (let ripen at room temp for 12 hours (best results come when starter has yet to fall and is still fair strong so I wouldn't suggest going much past this time unless you are in a very cool enviroment)
My starter is fed in the same ratio so essentially its just a build on the starter. (This starter was built for this particular bread)
I retard at 40deg F.
I actually believe that lower retarding is better if you are using for bulk fermentation and higher for retarded proofing but I have just one and use it for both. In any case my reasoning is that I like to get the mixed dough cold as fast as possible if I'm bulk fermenting for a long time in the retarder so the dough doesn't overferment. I like higher temp for proofing as the colder temps seem to put a skin on the dough requriing careful cover of exposed loaves to avoid this (i cover the board of shapes with plastic bags that I reuse but would love to skip this step). All in all bringing your dough out of the bowl on the cooler side is advantageuous.
Believe it or not I prefered the other bread using the retarded levain in place of the bulk fermented dough. Can't win em all and they are both great. amazing the same recipe can turn out so many different ways via different protocol.
The process is wonderful and very flowing for a bakery (as you mix the dough, you pull the dough to be shaped out and replace with fresh mixed). You bake the loaves shaped the night previous and follow with shaping and proofing the following day's bake. And with a retarder starter I only need to feed once daily. Its also wonderful starter for my Wholegrain Sour that is in the works. It is also a huge flavor boost to hybrid doughs.
I'll look into the photo thread and If I figure it out I'll post some pics.
Nice talking bread with you
Josh
Sounds like you have evolved a process that fits your needs perfectly Josh. I must admit, I always try and find a way to get my breadmaking fit into my schedule rather than the other way round. The only problem with that is my schedule is always changing so I rarely repeat the same process twice.
My starter is similar to yours. I keep it at 100% hydration. I feed it at a 1:2:2 ratio. In other words 50% starter, 100% flour and 100% water. My flour is an 85% all purpose, 15% light rye mix. I feed it at least once, but sometimes twice a week. After a feeding I keep it out of the fridge for about 2 hours. In that time it has just about doubled. If I left it out for 5 hours it would quadruple and peak.
I will definitely try your method of retarding the leaven. I like the sound of the 'buttery notes' as you put it. I have already mixed up another batch and am using your 'super sour' process. Should be in the oven early Sunday morning. Am filled with anticipation.
Many thanks for sharing,
Syd
Hi Syd,
G, Great looking loaf, Syd!! I enjoy reading your post and other TFL members comments, too. There are a lot of good information here. I also had the experiment of the sticky dough by using malt powder.
I have a couple of questions.. How do you keep your 100% starter? What kind of flour do you use for your starter?
I am not a super sour seeker (although I am liking sourer bread) so it will be fit into my taste. :)
Thank you for sharing, Syd!
Akiko
Thanks Akiko! Great to hear from you. I haven't seen you around here for a while. Thanks for your comments.
I keep my starter in the fridge. I feed it once or twice every week at a ratio of 1:5:5 (50% starter,100% flour, 100% water). I leave it out of the fridge for 2 hours in which time it has just about doubled. The flour that I feed it with is made up of 85% all purpose and 15% very light rye - all the bran removed. What percentage of starter I use to spike my leaven with will depend on what I am making, how long I want the leaven to ripen for and what the outside temperature is. Our temperatures are on the hot side here: most often somewhere between 27C and 32C (80F to 89F) most of the year round. It does get a little cooler in winter but our house is south facing and is always warm. Usually I spike my leaven with about 20% starter but, as I say, it will depend on how long I want the leaven to ripen for and the ambient temp. If it is cooler I might use 25%, 33.3% or even 50% if it was really cold. (Really cold would be 18C when we have one of the five cold fronts we have each year)!
Hope you are well Akiko,
Syd
Thank you for your generous response, Syd! I really thank your kindness as always. I really like your method of your levain ratio depends on the temperature you get. I usually use 50% levain as to the final flour for sourdough because here is cooler.. or chilly. I will decrease the levain amount when here is in the summer. Thank you for your experiment, that is very helpful.
I also keep my sourdough starters ( I started them with white flour /rye and water ) that were in the ziplock in the refrigerator, but the hydration is 60%, and feeding once a week. Then I adjust the 60% hydration to 70-80% ( I like the hydration for levain) when they are at the room temperature until they are more than doubled about 3-4 hours when I bake sourdough. So, I made yours but different hydration for the levain ( 80%) and sponge ( 80%) and final dough (56%). It came out very good sourdough to my taste, chewy but not too much and moderate sour/ I also taste sweet even I didn't use any sugar. I will use your method very often. Thank you Syd!
P.S I am kind of busy for my dog who is one year old White Shepherd who is still super crazy. And, I am recently into table tennis. So I am very fine. :)
I hope that you will get the taste that you are trying for your SFSD! Cheers!
Happy baking,
Akiko
You're welcome Akiko and your bread is beautiful! Lovely scoring, profile and crumb. Moderately sour and chewy. What more could you ask for? It looks like you got it all on your first bake. I, on the other hand, am on my ( I forget the actual number, but it is high) 12th or 13th attempt! And I am still not satisfied!
It is interesting that you got a sweet taste. Perhaps that has something to do with the flour you are using or maybe it is the hydration level of your starter and levain. Oh my, Akiko, now you have given me something else to try!!
Big dogs can be a handful. We have recently got a poodle (not the miniature kind but not the very big kind, either) and he is only three months old and chewing up everything in the house. Glad to hear you are having fun playing table tennis. :)
All the best,
Syd
Hi Syd,
Thank you for your compliment on my bread, Syd! My bread came out kind of flat actually.. Well, The dough was stickier than I expected. But the crumb and taste are very good to me.
I am also interested in the sweetness that I got. I agree with you about the hydration level of my starter and levain. I am going to make it again to see if I can get the same taste. I am looking forward to seeing your another result!
Oh my... You got a poodle!! We have 2 more dogs who are brother and sister( Half chihuahua/poodle mix) besides the White Shepherd. I could imagine that your puppy chews up everything... The brother poodle mix used to ripped up wall papers and made a hole nicely when he was a puppy.
Happy baking!! :)
Akiko
Very cute Akiko! I will send you a pic as soon as I have uploaded one. :)
Best,
Syd
Thank you, Syd! :) I am waiting!! :)
:P
Akiko
Hopefully you'll like this new technique and be able to adjust simply by picking a good time to start your project. I await your results and don't forget to bake it dark. Deep red and a hint of black. Yum.
Happy baking
Josh
Hopefully you'll like this new technique and be able to adjust simply by picking a good time to start your project. I await your results and don't forget to bake it dark. Deep red and a hint of black. Yum.
Happy baking
Josh
PS: Pic of Sour at link below in a group pic. Will take some up close single shots next week with crumb shots as well.
http://i1223.photobucket.com/albums/dd507/golgi70/ciabattaT9SDB-Rye.jpg
Thanks for posting Josh. Your breads look fantastic. I love that spiral scoring pattern. I will have to try that out soon. That rye looks outstanding, too.
I tried your technique and the results were pretty similar to mine. I ran out of the higher protein 12.4% flour so I used 11.4 % protein instead. This resulted in a slightly lower profile and a slightly less chewy crumb but the flavour was similar. I followed your instructions to the letter but only managed an 8 hour final retard in the fridge. I let it prove too much before I retarded and round about the 8 hour mark I realised that if I let it go on for any longer, it would overprove. I am wondering if I had let it retard for the full 12 hours, if it wouldn't have been more sour. Having said that, I know that tomorrow it is going to be more sour than it was today.
Here is a pic of the finished loaf. No crumb shot as it is already night time here and it is going to be very difficult to get a decent shot with poor lighting. I will definitely be trying your technique again and be more careful about the proofing times.
Many thanks,
Syd
You're welcome! :)
Hey Syd,
Looks great (almost the same as your previous). The Rye you admire is a wonderful Buttermilk Rye. Its the bread loaded with caraway and Rye that most Rye/caraway nay sayers fall in love with. Its mostly hydrated with buttermilk and studded heavy with Honey.
I don't believe the 4 extra hours would make incredibly noticeable changes. It seems I failed a touch on our process explanation timing wise. So the Levain is made at 12am, mixed at 12pm and retarded immediately. We pull the dough 22 hours later from bulk fermenation 10AM let it come to temp for a 2-4 hours. Shape at lets say 2pm. Its then floor proofed for about 4 hours so lets say it goes in retarder at 6pm. It is then baked at 12 pm the following day (18 hours). So in my quick description it seems I cut down some serious retarder time. I appologize I was typing quickly and not actually thinking it out perfectly so:
(Times are simply a made up to show the process)
Build Levain 60% levain 100% flour (5% is rye), 100% cool water (12 hours) Wedneday night 12AM (midnight)
Mix and retard (dividied into pieces of dough that aren't super thick so the dough temp comes down fastest, we used lightly greased bus tubs. We are putting 1/2 of what could safely fit in each tub and pressing it out so its even and as thin as possible) Thursday 12pm (noon)
Pull dough to remove the chill before shaping Friday 10AM
Shape Dough Friday 12pm Proof on floor in covered rack until 3/4 proof (if your retarder is warmer than mine maybe less proof will help 1/2 way??? about 3-5 hours (this will be different based on your enviroment and the part you will have to fine tune most)
Retard Shaped loaves Friday 5pm
Bake loaves with steam for 15 minutes vented for 20+(200 deg internal) Saturday 12pm
So the process begins at Wednsday 12 midnight and finishes Saturday and 12 noon (so all in all this is a 60 hour process) With very little work until the shape/proof. When our sour comes out of the oven you can smell the sour so thats a thing to look for.
Once again I appologize for not thinking this out more precisely.
This is our exact process and as I've metioned we have very similar recipes and looking loaves so maybe give this a try???
Happy Baking
Josh
No need to apologize Josh. Thanks for giving such a detailed description of your process. 60 hours is a long time, but the schedule you have worked out should fit well into my day. I would have to start the process on Thursday and bake on Sunday, though, as I wouldn't have any time to proof on Friday. I will most definitely try your process, hopefully this weekend.
In the meantime I have yet another experiment going and managed to squeeze in a bake of it yesterday. This involves my original recipe with the addition of maltose. I got the idea from Debra Wink's post on lactic acid fermentation. Here is the relevant quote:
For the first bake I added maltose at a rate of 4%. There was no overt sour smell when the loaf came out of the oven and even when you take a first bite you don't get any distinct sour taste, but the sour taste comes on slowly and it lingers on your tongue long after the bread has been swallowed. I don't have any problem with adding maltose to a loaf, much as I don't have any problem with adding diastatic malt. It is, after all a grain based product. I know sucrose can produce a powerfully sour loaf but it also slows down the whole process and seems to stunt the volume of the loaf. That is something I don't want to do. I also don't want the sweetness that sucrose would bring with it and somehow adding sucrose feels like a bit of a cheat whereas maltose doesn't. Other considerations would be honey and fructose. Once again I wouldn't want the sweetness they would bring, but it may be that only a small amount would be needed and sweetness would be negligible. On my next bake I think I will increase the maltose to five percent and consider the addition of some honey at, perhaps, 2%.
I have two questions for you: what is the protein level of the flour you use, and when you divide the dough what do you scale your loaves to? I am guessing yours are 1 pound loaves from the amount of time you bake for. I have to bake for 45-50 mins before a 2 pound loaf is baked.
Thanks for your detailed response.
Syd
For this loaf I actually use High Protein Flour around 13% is the specs I have but I'm sure it fluctuates. I am baking 30 oz loavess. It gets 15 with steam and 20+ minutes vented. I do believe you'll get the sour you want from the retarderas long as your dough temp is getting low enough to produce aecetic acid. I can't wait to see your results.
Happy Baking
Josh
30 oz is about 900 grams which is only slightly smaller than I scale my loaves, but you are using a commercial oven and I guess that makes the difference. I also give mine about 15 mins with steam ( I remove the steaming apparatus when they start to take on some colour which is usually around the 15 minute mark). However, I then give them another 30 to 35 minutes without steam, usually with the convection fan on.
How would you describe your crust Josh? Does it shatter into shards when you cut it? On day two mine has usually lost its crispness and gets chewy. It is even more chewy if I use the higher 12.4% protein flour. The crumb is chewier, too if I use the higher protein flour. Personally, I prefer the bite of lower protein (11.4%) that I usually use.
As soon as I have tried your amended process, I will post the results.
Syd
Crust is crisp at first and becomes chewy. In fact you describe it just right. Toasts back up like a dream. The HP flour also makes the crumb chewy. I took lead at a bakery that used hp as its choice white flour. I too prefer a lower protein flour. I do believe the HP helps during this long process. We've made with lower protein flour by accident and followed procedure to end in failure. Process may need tweaking to change flour and end in success. Mostly I'd think some times would need to be trimmed as other softer glutens would collapse. It's taken me some time to learn HP flour and it works. I still think its best in pizza and bagexciting
Excited to see your results
Happy baking
Josh
Love the crumb, love the flavour development overnight. Still slightly chewy after 8 hours.
For the flour I use (+ 11.5%) 69% is too much water so would try this recipe again with 65%, as it was scary slack at final shape. I should have known it would be a big discus coming from the oven. My oven runs quite hot so the first loaf was a bit blacker on one side despite the falling temp.
I found the crumb then to be a bit too open I quite like a more dense crumb. Glad I doubled the recipe so I could try 2 for the price of one....
Will have another go in a week or two. I spent the day making 5 grain bread with a chocolate malt (gives great colour) and a nice ciabatta that is folded every 20 mins before 1 hour final ferment, while watign for this loafe to be ready. I use a lot of recipes with both yeast and leavan for convenience. Lovely.
Thanks for the post Syd!
You're welcome monny. By the sound of your description a 65% hydration or even a 63% would be spot on for your flour. I am not fond of mixing overly slack doughs, either, because I do all of my kneading by hand. I read somewhere that protein levels are not necessarily an accurate description of the water absorption power of flour. My 11.4% does fine with a 69% hydration, but that is just my flour.
Your five grain bread sounds delicious.
Best,
Syd
my five grain bread made with dark chocolate roast malt. Made today with 30% leaven and 2% dry yeast to help the process. A sweeter crumb because the sour doesn't get to mature very far. My husband loves it for the energy value - he cycles to work 3 x per week.
Today's ciabatta was also a great success. Oven spring was 100 %, very satisfying since I use only a manually pumped spray bottle. Lovely porous well hydrated crumb. Delicious with our great NZ salted butter ;O)
That is a very pretty loaf monnyb, and I am sure it tastes absolutely delicious, too. Great colour and I love grainy texture the whole grain give to the crust. Glad to hear that your ciabatta was a success as well.
Best,
Syd
Hi Syd,
Your posting inspired me to imitate your efforts this week! What a beautiful looking loaf! I followed your instructions with the baking times and temps with the convection on. I just took my loaf out of the oven and the top is so sickly pale I thought it wasn't ready but internal temp read at 195 degrees. The bottom of the loaf has that caramelized crust! Weird, wonder how that happened with convection? My oven is calibrated and I used steam for the first 20 minutes. Any ideas why that would happen?
It's been a long haul with this one (including staying up until 1:30 last night until I could refrigerate the dough) and I often wonder why I continue experimenting with sourdough...but then I see photos such as the one you've posted and I know why I continue:)
M
Hi Mira,
I sorry you didn't get the result you were looking for. I know how disappointing it can be when you have put so much time and effort into it. Sourdough baking can be very frustrating at times. It's not like burning a cake that took half an hour to mix up. Sometimes you can spend the better half of a week planning and making a sourdough loaf.
The fact that the underside of your loaf browned and caramelized properly but the top didn't suggests to me that you weren't getting sufficient heat from above. Do you have a top element/bottom element choice on your oven setting knob? I use both the top and the bottom element when I bake. If I only use the bottom element my oven won't get hot enough and it will take ages to bake a loaf. It will also result in a loaf that isn't sufficiently browned on top. Each oven has its own idiosyncracies and sometimes you just have to play around until you get the right setting. Do you have an oven thermometer to check the accuracy of your oven?
My suggestion to you would be to pre-heat your oven for at least 45 mins before loading. Some people even suggest pre-heating for an hour before loading. You could also try raising your oven rack. The higher up in the oven you bake, the more the top will get browned. Put the rack in the middle and the top of the risen loaf should be close to the top of the oven (watch out for burning, although from the sound of things you would welcome some colour). If my suggested temperatures are not working for you, try baking hotter. Try 220C for the first 20 mins with steam and then drop to 200 - 205C for the second part of the bake. Actually I normally bake at a higher temp than the temperatures suggested in this recipe. It is just that I was looking for a redder, russet looking crust and was worried about overburning/over darkening it at higher temperatures.
Hope this helps,
Syd
Thanks for your response, Syd. I do have a good gas range that is correctly calibrated, and I do usually bake at a higher temperature. I did pre-heat for 45 minutes beforehand and am wondering if the convection prevented the deep colour on top. I'll just have to experiment with this one. After reading other posts, I am also wondering if my bread was overproofed:(
Sigh...the art of baking bread continues to elude me...it's one step forward and a few steps back...but at least my DH complimented the flavour if not its anemic looking qualities:)
M
Overproofing can cause anemic looking bread, but if your bread had been overproofed, then the bottom wouldn't have browned, either. I still maintain your top and bottom heat were uneven. Your convection oven wouldn't have prevented the top from browning. Convection ovens are about 20% hotter than conventional ovens and, if anything, would have created a darker crust. I went back to look at my original instructions and I see I incorrectly said that convection should be on for the initial steam. If the convection is on, then it will blow the steam away. I will go and change that immediately.
Best,
Syd
So this past Saturday, I realize our bread stocks will not last us until the next baking day and I ask my 15 year old daughter to pick a recipe from this website. She points to your lovely SF SD, Syd, and away we go. She reads the recipe to me as I scale out the ingredients for the leaven and I mix it into a smooth little ball of starter.
It isn't until I prep the Sponge the next morning that I realize between the humming to the tunes on her iPod and vigorously texting her friends, she had distractedly given me the wrong proportions, so that my leaven is not at 100% hydration, but rather at 65%. I attempt to play catchup when I make the final dough, adjusting the water so that in the final dough the proportions are correct. I hope.
It kneads beautifully in my KAM (since my last activity on this site Santa brought me the 6 qt KAM) with nice gluten development. But the dough is quite slack. I do the suggested folds but there is no way I can score this loaf. In other words, I should have Jayne Mansfield but I end up with Marlene Dietrich. I do the bulk fermentation as an overnight retard because I have no good place to put this slinky dough without it escaping the fridge.
Tonight, after bringing the dough to room temperature, I cut it into two rectangles and shape it into a Ciabatta; actually, it brings to mind the Pierre Nury Rye in Local Breads. I got some nice oven spring, with a lovely russet crust dotted with small bubbles. Since the loaves are just out of the oven, I will have to wait till breakfast time to assess the crumb.
So what I ended up with certainly ain't your beautiful SF SD, Syd. I have no idea what I ended up with, but the proof will be in the eating.
Can I blame my 15 year old for this?
If you want your daughter to bake with you again, involve her in assessing your results. Get her opinion of both the process and outcome. Ask for her suggestions for improvements to implement the next time you bake together. Make sure she knows you enjoyed working with her. Ask if she wants to share some of the loaf with her friends.
Besides, suppose the bread turns out to taste just wonderful. Who gets the credit?
Both my sons are terrific cooks as adults/husbands/fathers, but, in hindsight, it would have been neat to have them working with me in the kitchen when they were kids. I'm envious of you.
David
Thanks for your feedback, David. When I came home from work today, I pointed to the two long loaves (actually, one loaf and a heel--her brother ate half a loaf for an afterschool snack, but what can I expect from a 17 yo?) and observed that my results were nothing like Syd's picture.
"And do you know why?"
She grinned at me. "Did I read 4 cups when I should have read 4 Tbs?"
"Something like that. So, what did you think of the bread?"
"I thought it was pretty good!"
And it did turn out all right. Little sour--that may change a bit by tomorrow morning--but a wonderful chew and it was delicious spread with bleu cheese for lunch.
I bought a manual pasta roller/cutter Saturday, and when daughter spied it, she wanted to try it. I stepped back and let her take over kneading the dough, rolling it and cutting fettucine, adjusting the thickness and trouble-shooting the machine's quirks. Soon all the kitchen chairs were draped with golden strands which made a tasty dinner.
She did a good job critiquing herself, deciding that the cooked noodles were too thick and doughy, and vowing to try again.
Last summer I delegated weeknight dinner prep to my three teens, with anything being fair game...as long as Mom didn't have to make a last minute grocery run or act as sous chef. I'm thinking I'll do that again this year!
Bread-wise, too.
David
Yes, blame it on her, but if, as David says, it turns out to be some accidental masterpiece, then the credit is hers, too.
My eleven year old daughter likes to bake with me but is still more interested in turning it into a restaurant game where she takes pretend food orders from her three year old brother and mother . It is fun nevertheless and I know she has learned along the way. For instance, if you ask her what you need to make bread, she will reply: "Flour, salt, water and yeast!" My three year old son goes crazy for raw dough and will do anything to get it. The minute he hears me thwacking the dough on the counter, he is there for his fix. I worry about him getting a stomachache if he eats too much, so each time I tell him:"This is the last piece. No more." But he just smiles and barely a minute later he is back again!
Best,
Syd
Ok. I tried it. Suffice it to say that it came out less than yours: less tall, less golden, less blistered, less sour (just guessing.) Really pretty crumb though, and tasty enough that I will try, try again. -Varda
How did the dough feel Varda? Was it slack? Could it perhaps have been too much enzyme activity? I have noticed that if my levain build goes past its peak (in other words peaks and starts to recede) then I get problems with sticky dough and a lower profile. On my last two attempts at this loaf (since I posted this) I have reverted to using 11.4% protein flour but adding and extra 50g of it. So I add 300g of flour to the final dough but of a lower protein level. I haven't worked out the hydration but I am guessing it is somewhere around the 65% mark. My results have all been very consistent. I have also been adding maltose at a rate of 5%. This seems to encourage really nice smooth sour. At the moment I am experimenting with trying to find the perfect amount. I have another boule retarding in the fridge. Talk about being obsessive!
Syd
Syd, I cut the starter maturation to 5 hours since it seemed ready, then only did the sponge for 2 hours, because it was starting to bubble, as though the whole thing turned into starter, then mixed and did the 1 hour ferment with 2 S&F, then shaped and right into the refrigerator for 10 hours. Then 2 hour proof on counter in the morning. So my timing was somewhat different than yours. I went back and read the comments before scoring and saw that you said to go easy, but I didn't really - not enough control - and so that may have spread it out a bit, but really it spread as soon as I tipped it out of the basket. I used half and half 11.7% protein flour and 12.7% plus AP flour for the starter feed. It is not at all sour, so I feel I haven't yet arrived at something I could call SF Style Sourdough. -Varda
It sounds like it was all a bit overactive. Maybe too much proteolytic activity, or too wet for your particular flour. My suggestion would be to either subtract some water or add a bit more flour and try a hydration of about 65%. Also, don't let your starter overripen.
Best,
Syd
They all look good! Nice shaping and crumb on the sourdough loaf. Is that wholewheat sourdough focaccia? Looks great. What did you sprinkle on top? Yes, once you have tasted sourdough, everything else seems to lack in flavour.
Nice baking,
Syd
Syd, congratulations on this one. I tried it a couple of weeks back and was very pleased with the crumb and flavour. I can't recall having baked a nicer tasting all-white sourdough. Your process really draws out the flavour of the grain. As usual, my proof times had to be reduced (although only a little) - surprising, because I imagine your ambient temps in Taiwan are higher than mine here at this time of year (approx 22C for this bake). I must have a manic starter.
Anyway, thanks again, and here are a couple of pics.
Cheers!
Ross
Lovely crust and blistering there Ross. Your loaf is very consistent with the results I have been getting. Even my crumb is similar to yours. I don't get any large holes in the crumb because I knead it pretty well owing to the short bulk ferment. My recipe has changed a little from the one posted above and when I get some time I will post the updated version. I now only bulk ferment for 50 mins with two folds at 25 and 50 mins respectively. Then a five minute rest to relax the gluten before final shape. 45 mins out of the fridge in the banetton and then 18 hours in the fridge. Another 45 out at room temp while the oven is preheating and then into the oven. I am also now using a lower 11.4% protein flour rather than the higher 12.4% protein flour I used above but I am using slightly more of it.
Nice baking,
Syd
You're welcome Salma.
You need to upload them to the Fresh Loaf Server first.
This works on my iPhone with iOS6 but it doesn't work on my iPad with iOS5.
Syd
Thanks Syd, hope this works. salma
That's a beauty Salma. Lovely open crumb. It looks soft and light. I can see the rosemary and seeds in there, too. You got a lot of oven spring.
What did it taste like?!!
Best,
Syd