Honest bread - 100% whole-wheat desem bread and some country bread

The idea of honest bread and its making found its way into my thinking over the weekend. I find myself slipping more and more into this way of baking. Using less but wanting more from it. I didn’t bake any differently to past weekends yet I felt more connected and relaxed throughout the process. The slightly cooler temperatures certainly helped both my peace of mind and the resulting bread. The kitchen felt less frantic.

I haven’t been pushing the envelope. Just practising consistency while noticing and adapting to the subtle differences the change of seasons is bringing. Perhaps this might be seen as boring or lazy … nevertheless I enjoyed it thoroughly and it keeps us well fed.

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I baked two small batches of 100 per cent whole-wheat desem bread and country breads on the weekend. This will feed the family during the week and left us with a loaf to take away on a picnic to a country market in the northern New South Wales town of Bangalow. We had the best handmade organic doughnuts while wandering through the markets. One of the country breads was given to Nat’s parents on our trip home to help ease their struggling brought on by home renovations.

I have been trying a new method of milling where the flour is constantly stirred and moved around in the bowl as it falls from the mill. I want to disperse the heat as quickly as possible and noticed a definite improvement in the time it took for the flour to cool. Whether this translates into the final bread I really have no idea. Any ideas? I sifted the wheat flour for the country bread as normal and retained the bran for coating the desem loaves.

Mixing the desem starter
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Autolyse and desem starter
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Squeezing in desem starter
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Stretch-and-fold
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100% Whole-wheat Desem

Formula

Overview	Weight	%
Total dough weight	2000g
Total flour	1081g	100%
Total water	919g	85%
Total salt	20g	1.8%
Prefermented flour	162g	15%

Desem starter build – 10 hrs 18-20°C
Starter	61g	50%
Freshly milled organic wheat flour	122g	100%
Water	61g	50%

Final dough
Desem starter	243g	26%
Freshly milled organic wheat flour	919g	100%
Water	838g	91%
Salt	20g	2%

Method

Mix desem starter and leave to ferment for 10-12 hours at 18-20°C
Mill flour and allow to cool to room temperature before mixing with water (hold back 50 grams of water) and autolyse for a minimum of one hour.
Add levain to autolyse then knead (French fold) 5 mins. Return the dough to a bowl and add salt and remaining 50 grams of water and squeeze through bread to incorporate (dough will separate then come back together smoothly) then knead a further 10 mins.
Bulk ferment two and a half hours with three stretch-and-fold 30 mins apart.
Preshape. Bench rest 20 mins. Shape.
Final proof was for 1.5 hours at 24°C
Bake in a preheated dutch oven at 250°C for 10 mins then reduce temperature to 200°C and bake a further 10 mins. Remove bread from the dutch oven and continue to bake on a stone for a further 20mins to ensure even browning.

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I am continuing to expand the desem starter with one build straight from the fridge and as the overnight temperature continues to cool the desem starter is achieving a more controlled fermentation and sweeter aroma by the following morning. I have been looking forward to this kind of weather all summer and it is so nice to not have sweating dough racing away from me into a sticky mess. I even had to increase proofing times by an extra half-an-hour for this bake.

For an aesthetic change to previous desem loaves I baked these without slashing in a dutch oven after coating them in bran sifted from the country breads. I was really surprised with the increased oven spring … quite possibly the best I have had with this form of bread.

Country bread baking
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The most telling tale that the cooling temperatures are affecting the bread came with the cutting and tasting. Nat took a bite and then looked at me and asked quite seriously, ‘Have you added anything else to this … it tastes sweet?’ Not only does it taste sweet, but you can smell the sweetness in the kitchen while slicing through a loaf. The crust is delicate with the bran coating adding a crunchy contrast to the soft crumb within.

So far we have eaten it with Nat’s special ‘sick soup’, with honey and ricotta, toasted with peanut butter, with plum jam, with apricot jam … and the list goes on and on.

Happy baking all ...
Cheers
Phil

PiPs's Blog
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I'm totally with you Phil, regarding honest bread.

And here is a word which those bandwagon boys, the big producers, will never be able to hijack like they have with "Organic" and "Artisan"

Beautiful Bread...nothing more, nothing less!

Best wishes

Andy

Thank you Andy,

I had to smile when you described your Seigle d’Auvergne - This is about as honest a loaf as I can imagine making..and very hearty too.

Oh boy, I have to roll my eyes whenever I see the word 'Artisan' ... feels very hijacked and overused now ... and then I have a smile to myself when I see the endless debates over what it might actually mean ... sigh

Nice to see you that your consultancy and baking is keeping you busy.

Cheers,
Phil

Hi Phil, a really great bread. I'd really like to have such an open crumb with wholemeal flour. Unfortunately hard wheat grains are impossible to get here and wholemeal manitoba isn't for sale, either.

You inverted the digits of the starter ingredients, while the percentages are correct.

Hi nico,

Thanks for your kind comment and pick-up in the formula ... yeah I had mixed up the starter build, the weights were right, but were listed the wrong way around - all fixed now.

I used a biodynamic white winter wheat from South Australia for these breads. It's protein level is listed at 13% on the specs but I don't think it is quite as strong as the wheat we get in Queensland or Northern New South Wales. It will break down if its fermented or soaked to long. It also produces a much softer crumb with more flavour ... the only problem being is that it is not as local a product as I would like. Sorry to hear you are unable to source grains or flour to your liking.

Cheers,
Phil

bread Phil. Bread, pictures and write up are very well done as usual. I was thinking of you this morning anyway as I was having your green and purple super hero Sage and Walnut bread for breakfast toasted.

And I said 'what could possibly be better?' as I was reading your post.......I think I found it........

Your toasted bread with home made purple bramble, blueberry and apple jam with the same in homemade Greek yogurt. So, thanks for for a great breakfast too! The perfect accessory to read your post. Cheers

Thanks so much for your recipes .

Hi dabrownman,

So glad your still enjoying the walnut bread ... your breaky looks great. Nat has been busy polishing off a batch of plum jam here :)

Glad your enjoying the posts.

Cheers,
Phil

Both the bake and the presentation are just gorgeous! I want to try this formula, a question regarding the starter you used to build desem starter, is it firm or liquid? Is it fed with whole wheat？

Hi txfarmer,

Thanks so much for the kind words .. means a lot coming from you :)

The starter used is a desem starter that is fed the same ratio as the desem build - 1:1:2

It is fed with fresh milled flour and lives in the fridge during the week with one refreshment.

You could feed a starter at 50% hydration with whole-wheat flour and keep it cool 18-20C for a few feeds and get something close to what I am using.

Cheers,
Phil

Phil is

A. a superb baker
B. an equally if not more superb photographer
C. the Wendell Berry of bread baking
D. an inspiration
E. all of the above

Beautiful bread, photos and sentiments. Thanks for that.

- tdb, back to exam writing :-(

Hi tdb,

Thanks ... your much too kind ... I was not much good at multiple choice - probably would have gotten that one wrong :)

cheers,
Phil

by baking that comes out like that? Gorgeous! -Varda

Thanks Varda,

Totally agree ... and there is something very comforting baking a formula you know quite well but still having to adapt and pay attention.

Cheers,
Phil

The breads and photographies are just pure eye-candy, Phil. I particularly like the close-ups of the slashes, at the bottom of your blog post.

Funny you mention that the loaves come out tasting sweet - is this due to the wheat you're using, Phil? My experience with whole-wheat breads like this, is a slightly earthy, bitter flavour note. This is probably a characteristic of the red wheat that is available up north, where I'm based?

Once again, remarkable breads and pictures, Phil!

I was going to ask the same thing, but Phil says

The most telling tale that the cooling temperatures are affecting the bread came with the cutting and tasting. Nat took a bite and then looked at me and asked quite seriously, ‘Have you added anything else to this … it tastes sweet?’ Not only does it taste sweet, but you can smell the sweetness in the kitchen while slicing through a loaf.

So rather than being told to RTFM, I deferred. OTOH, wholemeal flour retains the germ. Germ contains some oil (e.g., wheat germ goes rancid). So perhaps freshly milled (recently harvested -- germ can go rancid in the intact grain, I assume) flour has yet to 'turn' as most ww flour has at least begun to by the time we purchase it.

Or, as Phil suggests, does coolness sweeten SD/desem? Good to know, if so.

tdb

Thanks Hans,

I think the sweetness comes from a few factors ... using a white winter wheat and having it freshly milled plus cooler temperatures and appropriate fermentation length. I mean appropriate as I am not trying to extend the length of the process as I believe this leads to sourness and unpleasant bitterness in whole-wheat breads - especially naturally leavened breads.

The combination of freshly milled grains and cool temperatures brings about a really unique aroma to the starter. I notice this most when refreshing the starter from the fridge - sweet and fruity . Have you ever tasted flour still warm from a mill? It has a sweet flavour to it as well.

I haven't had the chance to use red wheat but I have heard that it does have a stronger and perhaps bitter flavour to the bran.

Thanks for the kind words.
Cheers,
Phil

David

Thanks David,
Cheers,
Phil

When I'm done reading your posts, i feel so intimately involved with your loaves and process without ever being there. Must be the great photography! Wonderful post!

Mini

Thank you Mini,

So glad you enjoyed the photos and post ...

All the best,
Phil

Phil,

As aways I am enthralled with your photos. I especially like the 'cupped hand' theme in this post.

These loaves look far from ordinary to me :-) Feel free to post as many of your ordinary breads any time!

I agree with your observations on the cooling temps. Ours have been going up here but the past months have been a delight....I hate to see them go...

I look forward to reading about the changes in your loaves as winter turns towards you :-)

Thanks for the post.

Take Care,

Janet

Thanks Janet,

We have just come through a really rainy patch as well ... cool and dry now ... a really nice change. Makes me happy that my ordinary bread is received with such enthusiasm.

Will you still be using your proofer when summer arrives?

Cheers,
Phil

Phil,

Probably not as the temp. in the house on most summer days is in the mid 70'sF/21°-25°C which is my preferred proofing temp. There are also days when it gets above that and I then move leavens and dough into the basement where it is a bit cooler.

Might use proofer for fermenting other things.....I recently made buttermilk and sour cream....yogurt is beckoning....all sorts of possibilities on the horizon :-)

Take Care,

Janet

(Yes, 1,000%!) Everything about it is exquisite -- the writeup, the photos, and of course the bread! Really fantastic. What a treat!

All the best,

Janie

Hi Janie,

Thanks for your very generous comment :)

Cheers,
Phil

Hi Phil,

Excellent bread and photography, as I would expect from you! ;-)

You asked about the temperature of the flour from the Komo. I haven't specifically measured the temp of the flour, but just poking a finger into the fresh milled flour, it is on the warm side. I've also been curious about it. While I am no expert, it seems the consensus is that lower temp during milling is "better", but I haven't noticed any major difference in the final result. Have you tried chilling the berries beforehand? For some reason, I got into the habit of refrigerating a batch of berries I plan to mill in a sealed container (tossing it in the kitchen fridge overnight), prior to milling. For me, the Komo has no problems with milling chilled berries - the flour seems to be the same consistency and is a lot cooler coming out of the spigot.

Thanks gvz,

I found the flour from the Komo much warmer than what my fathers Hawos mill produces. The Komo has smaller stones and a bigger motor which seem to generate heat quicker so I have been doing the same as you and milling grains that have been stored in the fridge. This has helped immensely ... but found the flour would still hold a lot of heat ... tossing/stirring the flour seems to dissapate it. If I wasn't so busy I would experiment and take some temperature readings.

cheers,
Phil

Hi Phil,

Understood. With non-chilled berries, after milling a batch, if I hold the container of flour in my hands, I can feel the heat pretty well. Even before I read on TFL that colder is better, it didn't seem quite right. A bit too warm.

As far as how it affects final product, unfortunately I can't say, and even more it might be pretty subjective conclusion, depending on the person, but, that said...

It might be interesting to try a head-to-head test:

1) Mill some room-temp berries and immediately use for a bread.

2) Mill some chilled berries and make the same exact bread.

Preferably a 100% whole-berry bread, to get a good comparison.

I've also wondered about the aspects of 'green flour' and whether to age fresh milled flour. I've done both, and while I have no scientific evidence, I don't think it really matters for 100% whole-grain breads... maybe it does for large-scale retail production of white-flours ... some people have commented about "Thiols" and stuff, degrading gluten if not properly oxygenated for a while after initial milling... but I haven't encountered that in my home environment... I can mill up a bunch of 100% unsifted whole-wheat flour, use it immediately (within a day), and the gluten works just fine... :)

Have to agree about the aging ...

I haven't noticed much difference in the dough handling using non-aged flour, apart from the fact that I need a bit more water in the dough and it does to tend to ferment a little quicker. Even the sifted flours seem to work reasonably well - perhaps just a little stickier at shaping time.

Not sure if I have the time for baking experiments though :)

Cheers,
Phil

Phil and gvz,

I have been reading your dialogue here and decided to measure temps. today when milling grain for my leaven builds and for a dough I will mix up tonight.

Here are my findings with the KoMo. I had it set at the finest setting possible without the stones touching on both millings.

1st batch of flour was a mix of hard winter ww and spelt and weighted approx. 1400g (spelt made up 12% of that wt and is softer than the ww.)

Temp read 104°F/40°C upon completion.

2nd batch of flour was a mix of hard winter ww (140g), Kamut (30g) and Spelt (30g).
Temp. read 90°F/32°C upon completion.

The berries were not refrigerated before hand. (Would have taken more planning on my part as I don't normally refrigerate the grains prior to milling.)

I did refrigerate the ground flour to cool it faster.

I did not stir it as it came out of the hopper - I keep the hopper covered with a light towel to keep the dust from spreading all over the place. :-0

Tomorrow, if I remember, I will refrigerate the berries before milling and see what the end result is.

I don't generally worry about the temp. of the grain and am not sure how much of a difference it makes in the end so this is an interesting experiment for me. In the winter I prefer the flour warm as it takes the chill off of everything and helps with maintaining my dough temp. with mixing and the rest period after 1st mix when our house is chilly. I usually mill it and immediately add it to the water and leaven. Today things will be cooler.

I will report back on any progress, or lack thereof, tomorrow with cooled berries.....

Take Care,

Janet

Chilled Berries:

1st large batch:

Amount of berries ground: 910g (818g hard red wheat; 92g rye)

45°F/7°C prior go milling on finest setting.

107°F/42°C after milling.

Smaller batch:

400g berries ground (hard white winter wheat)

45°F/7°C prior to milling.

96°F/35.6°C upon completion.

Revision of first findings posted yesterday - I had my thermometer buried to deep in the flour and so the temp. was lower than the flour actually leaving the shoot.

I milled 2 separate batches of 120g of grain each.

Room temp. grain ended up being 116°F/46°C upon completion and that was only 120g!!!!

Same amount but ground coarser - set on the 'M' in the ......KoMo..... logo.

Grains refrigerated first.

End temp. was 83°F/28°C.

Temp. difference between batches - cooled/coarse vs room temp./fine 33°F/18°C.

As has been stated by you both and Khalid in other threads my findings concur with yours.

Cooler when grinding on a coarser setting.

Refrigerating grains makes a difference too.

But not sure how any of the differences impact the final product as I can't taste what I make and my family isn't that fine tuned to differences for me to question them.....

End of study :-)

Happy Milling,

Janet

As always.

Right with you on the season change. It's been around 24C in my kitchen since I arrived back from SE Asia (5 days ago), which is a stark contrast to the 32+ we were getting when I left. Baking is so much more pleasurable at moderate temps.

Cheers
Ross

... and no humidity! Hoorah!!!

I was getting a little nervous at the start of Autumn as we were still getting some stupid hot days and rain here.

Thanks for popping by and leaving a comment. Hope you had a good trip.

Cheers,
Phil

I love veiwing your beautifully photograped bakes. They look and sound delicious.

Sylvia

Hi Sylvia,

Thanks for your comments. Glad you like 'em.

Cheers,
Phil

Hi, Phil.

I've wanted to make a desem for several years, and your beautiful loaves have finely gotten me going! I'm activating my starter and will mix the desem levain tomorrow evening. I do have one questions, though: Your procedure looks like you do not proof the loaves at all, but bake them immediately after shaping. Is that true? If not, could you describe your proofing procedure, please?

Thanks in advance.

David

Hi David,

Dear oh dear ... I dropped the ball a bit with the formula this time :) ... rushing. I have updated it now, thanks.

Yes they were proofed in cloth lined baskets after coating with bran. The final proof for these was approx 1.5hrs at 24C. During summer they were proofing in just under an hour ... I watch them like a hawk :)

I find my flour quite thirsty so you may need to adjust the hydration. Are you milling your flour for the desem?

Hope they work out nicely for you.

Cheers,
Phil

Hi, Phil.

The only mill I have is the attachment for my KitchenAid. It doesn't grind flour as fine as I think it should be for the desem, so I am going to use some very nice, very finely ground organic WW flour from Central Milling. Am I correct in assuming that finely milled flour is called for?

Another question: Do you keep a desem starter going, or do you elaborate a WW levain from another starter each time you make a desem loaf? I get the impression that desems' special flavor depends on keeping a very firm, WW-fed starter going over many feedings. What's your view?

David

Hi David,

I have read a few conflicting thoughts on how fine the flour should be milled. In Thom Leonard's bread book he mentions that a finer flour produces a lighter loaf but he prefers a slightly coarser grind. I tend to mill finely as I like the lighter texture. You could always mix some coarse fresh milled flour in with the Central milling flour for a nice combination. You may need to reduce the hydration if not using freshly milled flour - perhaps 80% Hydration?

My desem starter is my main starter. I sometimes will elaborate off it to produce liquid preferment or rye starters but always keep the storage starter a pure desem. It is easy for me to maintain and it produces minimal waste. I agree with you that it it would take a few feedings at the correct temperature and hydration to produce the flavour, but also freshly milled flour is very important to this flavour as well. I had maintained a desem starter in the past using store bought wholemeal and I didn't manage the flavours and aromas that it produces now after milling fresh flour.

Cheers,
Phil

My dough is autolysing at this moment. I am using the CM WW flour. I haven't adjusted the hydration, but we'll see what the consistency is after I add the levain and the salt. This flour is pretty absorbant, so I'm betting no adjustment will be needed.

David

Great looking bread, and photography, Phil!!

Your hands with the flour and dough remind me of Chad Robertson's hands, your hands look alike.

Funny you mentioned stirring your flour as it gets milled, i do just that! I also believe it disspiates the heat generated by milling action, and will result to some extent in better flour, especially if you mill at fine setting. However, i mill my wheats cold (usually crack them and refrigerate them, then remill them cold), as this reduces the temperature of the flour. I however mill 2 kg. of wheat at a time, so the stones do eventually heat up.

Best,

Ha Ha ... I don't think my hands are anywhere as skilled as his though :)

I think I will be using the stirring technique from now on ... I will usually mill a batch of flour then wait for an hour or so before milling the next batch to let the stones cool ... and give the house a break form the noise :)

Cheers,
Phil

Hi Phil, I had to tell you that I found your pictures so informative. It is very useful to know what the dough looks like at the various steps, including the finished breads, crumb and all. I don't do any milling, so my question will probably sound naive. I wonder if freezing the wheat berries would be useful in keeping flour temerature down? They would be cooler starting out, than refrigerated, by about 40 degrees. Ray

Hi rayel,

Thats great that the photos are so informative ... I am a visual person so I find that kind of reference really handy. I rarely cook or bake things that have no photos of processes or a finished product.

You could keep them in a freezer but I had people mention that they can produce condensation when they hit room temperature which may interfere with the milling. I have also read that the bran is more likely to shatter rather than stay in larger pieces ... all heresay though. These kind of small stones quickly start heating up and storing heat when the milling begins so there is only so much one can do :)

Cheers,
Phil

Hi Phil,

Good point.

I thought of the condensation and the possibility of gumming things up. Interesting about the shattering bran as well. Thanks .

All the best,

Ray

This is a fabulous, delicious bread, Phil! If possible, it tastes even better than it looks.

Thank you for sharing it with us!

Here's a link to my write-up: Inspired bread: Phil's 100% Whole Wheat Desem

Best regards,

David

hi Phil, amazing good looking breads!!!

I've always flirted with the idea of keeping a desem starter, but I kept postponing the moment... until I saw your post. So yesterday I took a small amount of my white starter and transformed it in a whole wheat 50% hydration, coverd it in wheat flour and put it in a container in the fridge. I don't know what to do further... can you help me with instructions how to take care of it? How often should I feed it and what proportions, exactly? I was thinking 20g desem starter, 20water, 40 WW flour, for example, is ok? once a week, or twice? feed it and put it imediately in the fridge.

How many feeds do you think it will need before I can use it to make your formula (keeping in mind that I made it from a white starter 100% hydration)

Best wishes,

codruta

Hi Codruta,

Thanks for your interest in this...

My desem starter may behave a little differently as it is fed freshly milled flour and thus may be a bit more active ... but this is how I maintain it ...

I keep a 200g ball of starter (1:1:2 ratio) in a closed jar covered and surrounded by flour. This jar is kept in the fridge for most of the week.

On a tuesday evening I remove the starter and refresh it using 50g starter:50g water:100g flour (1:1:2 ratio) and leave it outside in the cool at 18-20C for 10-12 hours. On Wednesday morning I refresh it again at the same ratio then place it directly in the fridge. It will stay the fridge until Friday night when I expand it again using the 1:1:2 ratio for baking on the Saturday morning. (usually 125g starter:125g water:250g flour) This will give me enough for 4 loaves and 50g to continue the starter. The starter is then fed and placed into the fridge on Saturday morning until Tuesday evening.

The starter is pretty tolerant. I can miss the Tueday feeding if I am super busy and it is happy enough, but doesn't smell as sweet.

I don't press the flour firmly around it in the jar. I just tap the jar on the bench to allow ther flour to settle. I can then watch the top of the flour crack and move upwards as the starter expands within it. It gives me a pretty good clue to how the starter is developing.

When it is time to expand or refresh I tip the flour out of the jar into a container and brush the flour off the desem ball. It will have a soft crust around it. I cut the ball in half and then peel off the crust and use the soft sweet insides. I dissolve the required amount of starter in water before adding the flour.

A couple of notes on this: I like to make sure sure that the flour that surrounds it in the jar is at room temperature before placing it in the fridge. This gives the starter some time to start developing before the fridge cools it too much. I usually mill the flour a few minutes before feeding so I can allow it to cool to room temperature. I also feed the starter with filtered water.

Perhaps 3 feeds would be enough for your starter??? ... its a bit hard to say really :)

Hope this helps ... it probably seems complicated ... so if you have any more questions I am happy to help.

Cheers,
Phil

Hi Phil,

Reading through your routine I have a couple of questions.

Are you tossing out 150g of starter at each refreshment so that total amount in refrig. stays a constant 200g except for your final feed that ups the wt. to 500g?

Why do you start the process on Tue. instead of waiting until Thursday and then doing them back to back at room temp. as you do the first feed on Tues?

Thanks for the clarification.

Janet

P.S.

I had a bit of extra starter yesterday and I made a small loaf (500g only) of the desem. Very nice and light loaf indeed. I changed a couple of things to fit my schedule - made a soaker out of the bulk of the flour and water and a 4g of the salt the night before and I used my usual leaven build schedule at 60% HL rather than yours at 50% - just too stiff for my hands these days....) Other than that I followed your schedule but mine took a bit longer to proof.

Hi Janet,

Your breads looks V-nice ... the crumb looks identical to the one I have been getting.

There is some waste with the Tuesday refreshment as I don't bake much during the week. Sometimes the excess gets used, sometimes not. I don't lose any sleep over it and it is certainly a lot less wastage than when I was doing two feedings a day with my previous leavens.

The problem with the back-to-back refreshments is that the daytime temperatures are still way to high here - around 26-28C ... and until I get myself a nice little wine fridge the starter will over-ferment and lose the sweet quality. When winter arrives I will be able start incorporating back-to-back refreshments again.

I was doing refreshments on the weekend only, but found the starter didn't smell as nice as when I could give it a feed during the week. Tuesday seemed kind of in the middle :) ... so this routine stayed and the starter seems happier than ever.

I try to keep the starter at 200g. It fits nicely in the jar and leaves me with enough starter to do just one expasion for a decent weekends baking. Have you tried covering the loaf with bran when you proof it? It gives the crust a really nice flavour and crunch ... makes a bit of a mess when it comes time to slice it though :(

Cheers,
Phil

Evening Phil,

Thanks for explaining your feeding schedule... I wasn't sure if you tossed or built on what you had and now it makes sense. I used to loose a lot when I tried keeping mine at room temp. to. Now that I refrig. I don't loose any.

Sounds like you process with your leaven is like mine. Tweaking until finding the right rhythm. I tried the 50% 1:1:2 and mine ripened too quickly and the stiffness hurt my hands - even at 62°F/16°C! I cut back on the starter and tried 1:1.7:3 and it still was ready too quickly so now I do 3 builds during the day at 1:.035:.65 ( eg 20:7.8:13). Works for me because I am here and refreshing times are usually around meal times...convenient. The 60% HL is easier on my hands. Who knows if this routine will change in the future or not but it is working now and there is flexibility as I can always refresh earlier but last rise is more important to watch so it doesn't over ripen...happens sometimes but bread is still okay - just adds a different flavor.

I keep my refrig. starter at about 200g also. I read somewhere that going below that doesn't give the critters room enough for a healthy and stable environment - not the right phrase but something along those lines. Like fish in a fish tank - rule of thumb is 1 gallon of water per 1" of fish otherwise overcrowding and the fish don't do as well.....toxins build up etc....

I have never tried adding bran to the crust. My crust turned out pretty light in color as it baked more quickly than I expected so it had the lid on the entire bake. I decided to leave it soft. Next time I will try the bran and letting it bake uncovered and directly on the stone. Tis a nice simple loaf to throw together. I was very tempted to add more flour to it as my dough was wetter than I am used to working with. Glad I left it as you had it - I liked the resulting softness/lightness of the crumb.

Take Care and thanks again for the explanation.

Janet

Phil, thank you A LOT. It's not at all complicated. In the waiting for your answer, I already started my desem and I pretty much did exactly what you describe, only I used cold flour to feed it and surround it, and it still expanded (I'll use room temperature flour next time, thank you for describing the procedure in detail) I only keep 120g (30:30:60) cause I intend to make just 1 bread at the time. I halved your recipe cause I thought you made 2 loafs of 1 kg of dough each. Now I read you're making 4 (that means 500g/loaf... when I saw your photos I was wondering if the loaf is little or your hands are really big? :))

I love the way that desem ball expand under the flour and cracks the surface, like a struggling seed. That is how mine looked after 24 hour from the second feeding.

Last night I prepared the desem build for this formula. The only thing I don't know now is if this bread requires a high protein content whole wheat flour or not. I saw David used a high protein flour, but what I have on hand is a low protein whole wheat (I was sure I still have a bag of my usual WW flour but last night I discovered that I don't, and the only WW flour I have is 10.9g protein). I have a few hours before the desem build is ready, so I could run to the store and buy a different flour (~14g protein)... and I think I'll just do that.

I consider my first loaf a trial, I don't expect much... but we'll see. I'll get back after I'll bake the bread.

Thanx again for details, instructions and everything,

Codruta

Ha Ha, no that's a 1kg loaf i'm holding :) ... I use the desem starter for other breads on the weekend as well.

Your starter looks good ... How is the aroma of it?

I think a high protein flour would help, but you might sacrifice some of the flavour. The wheat I mill is close to 13% protein. I have made these with lower protein wheat and they tasted great but you have to be careful with hydration and handling. Its worth considering altering the formula for lower protein flowers and using a larger amount of preferment to shorten the overall fermentation. A long fermentation can degrade the gluten too much and cause the dough to go runny. A lower hydration would help too.

Looking forward to seeing your results.

Cheers,
Phil

Hello. The aroma of the desem build is more sour than sweet. I decided to go with the flour I had at home, and I used 18% prefermented flour and 80% hydration. I preheated the oven and I watch the dough now. It looks nice.

Is that a crime if I score the dough? or traditionally, desem bread is unscored?

I'll get back with report.

Phil,

Reading through your procedure about how you discard the hard outer layer of your desem....I recalled reading the following on Farine and am posting it here:

Gérard folded back the crust and judged its thickness satisfactory:

I scraped most of the wet stuff off and harvested 200 g of crust. Gérard checked what I had collected and said that I could gone even dryer as the crust contains three times as many wild cells as the soft parts but that it would be okay.

Since reading it I have been covering my leaven with flour every time I mix it and I use all of the leaven for the next build plus the flour that was surrounding my leaven. If I don't need the full amt. I make sure that it is the soft stuff beneath the surface that gets tossed and I use the crusty out skin....My leaven seems to be thriving with this new routine. Robust and doubles in less than 8 hours using your ratios and kept at 65°F.

Hope you are enjoying your cooler temps. Puts you back in charge :-)

Take Care,

Janet

Hi Janet,

Thats quite a fascinating experiment ... I have only ever used the inside of the desem ball but I do remember that comment by Gerard. I have used that technique when building a levain just not for maintaining them.

The weather has been beautifully cool here ... I have to make a few allowances for proofing at the moment ... I actually have to wait for breads to proof now :)

I have just spent the weekend away baking with Laurie again ... We had a great bake with a really good oven ... kept wonderful colour on the breads all day. Laurie put me in charge of the bake - I mixed all the doughs, shaped the majority of them, scored and peeled them all into the oven. Needless to say I had absolutely no time to take any photos. I think there are a couple of photos on Chalala's facebook site. We sold out at the markets again by lunchtime ... I am home again - tired but thoroughly pleased with the weekends bake.

Good to hear from you.

Phil

Phil,

Nice that you got to spend another weekend baking. I am assuming you were able to save a loaf for you and your family since you usually bake for your family on the weekends.....or are you using frozen breads for these weekends you are away? Heaven forbid you end up buying bread because you are too busy to bake for home :-0 That I can't imagine ever happening.....

When I read what MC wrote about the outer crust it made perfect sense to me. Kinda like peeling an apple and tossing the skin away. I just had never made a similar connection to the 'skin' on my leavens before. I haven't been able to find out why there are more wild yeasts in the crust in my searches but for now I do see a difference in my leavens being much more robust. They seem to rise more quickly even at 50% HL. They are now ripening in the same amount of time my 60% leavens rise in even in temps that are 10° cooler!

Glad you are getting to enjoy the coolness and that it allows your pace with baking to slow down a bit. I am on the other end as you know :-)

Take Care,

Janet

NO! I had no bread to bring back :(.. We are eating bread from the freezer until I squeeze a bake in during the week. It has been a long time since I have bought bread :)

I may try this next time I feed my desem and see if I can match your results. Thanks for letting me know.

Cheers,
Phil

Phil,

Okay, now that I have this hyperactive child new desem starter to take care of I have some questions for you hoping your experience can cut some time off of my learning curve.

In the last few days I have been reading all I can find on maintaining a desem and all I have read thus far varies depending upon the author. After reading I do know some things though and one is that whenever I make a change my head starts spinning as any change changes everything else....Here are some of my 'knowns':

I know I want to keep hydration below 60%.
I know I want to keep temps between 50°F/1o°C and 65°F/18°C when it is ripening.
I would love to feed it 1x a day only but 2x is okay.
Primary goal is to keep my leaven 'sweet' because all prefer a milder flavor in the breads I bake.

I have come to you because I know you use whole grains like I do.

Question:

On what setting do you grind your grains for your starter? (Laurel R. recommends coarsely ground grains.)

In your photo of your ripened leaven it appears to be as firm as mine generally is. Laurel states that it should look like brown cottage cheese due to the break down in the gluten. She also says that it should disintegrate when added to water without leaving a white color in the water.

This is how mine looks and, according to Laurel, the water shouldn't be white....well, as you can see - mine clearly is :-) It disintegrates only with the help of my mixer or my hands breaking it down....Does your leaven dissolve easily without turning the water white?

On to another issue:

One problem that I am running into now that I am attempting to feed my starter on a regime similar to yours ( 1:1:2) AND keep it at room temp. is that it is ripening way too quickly (in about 5 hours time when held at 65°F/18°C.) despite the lower HL that I usually refresh with.

Today I switched gears and fed it thus - 30:66:120. It has slowed it's growth a bit but it is still ahead of 'my' mixing schedule and. due to this change another question arose:

Is there a specific reason you use the 1:1:2 ratio or is that just what works in your time schedule? (Laurel's ratio is very different 1: .68: 1.32) and and the ratio in The Bread Builders is mixed and kept at 100% HL....)

This is a lot of questions all at once so I will stop. Just hoping you might be able to give me a couple of pointers on how you have done things in the past to arrive at where you are today with how you maintain your starter. I know in time all will work out and then winter will be upon us and all will have to change again :-)

Thanks for your help.

Take Care,

Janet

Hi Janet,

I am not sure if there is one answer that will suit you. I find I have to feed my starters twice a day if they are on the bench ... and possibly three times a day for the desem if the temperatures are warm. Hence I like to keep it in the fridge as much as possible as I have no reliable way of keeping it in range of temperatures that keep mild flavours if I keep it on he bench. In fact I have been using my normal 'white' (It contains 30% wholegrains) levain a lot more lately ... produces better aromas and flavours ... the desem is still too acidic if I miss the correct time to use it - and this happens often ... a starter needs to fit in my routine ... and the white one is more tolerant to my schedule.

I have been using 5-6 hour build times at the 1:1:2 ratio during 24C days. Shorter build times may be the key to your problem if you can't control the temperatures ... thats what they did in france a hundred years ago before temperature control. Short builds that favoured the yeast and not the acid producing bacteria ... they wanted sweet bread ... sourness was frowned upon.

Your desem looks like mine in the water ... somedays it dissolved more easily ... especially if it has been in the fridge for the week.

I'm not if I have helped ... but I think you will find a routine that works.

Cheers,
Phil

Phil,

You have helped. I was under the impression that you were able to go 12 hours between builds with your desem.....now I know mine is acting more 'normal' than I thought. Good to know your looks like mine in the water too. Mine will dissolve too if it is old but I consider a week old starter in need of fresh food before being used in a loaf which means several builds and back to being stiffer since the gluten gets strengthened all over again. Well, it doesn't get strenghtened - it is new gluten as the old gets mixed out....

Helps to know you are using 'white' flour because that makes a huge difference as you stated. When trying to follow your ratios I now know that 50%HL is about 60-62% with ww which is what I have been doing with my 3 short build schedule. Trying to mix ww at 50% is like making mud balls out of dry clay.....near impossible :-0 but I have been trying. Now I know I can give that up :-)

My 'old' routine was the routine you outlined that the French used to do. I would do 3 short builds during the day which is okay with my schedule since I am home. I had been keeping the HL at 60% but my hands get sore mixing that stiff of a starter so frequently. One of my desires for switching to a less frequent schedule was to be able to use my compact Bosch for the mixing thus giving my hands a break.

Today my daughter was willing to taste the starters I have been experimenting with. All mixed at 55% HL but stored at differing temps. (One at 22°C, one at 18°C and one in my mini refrig. at 10° C.). According to her taste samples all were somewhat similar but the one at 18° was the more sour while the one at 10° was the least which is what I was expecting. Only glitch was that the one at 10° rose the least amount even after 9 hours - though it did rise. I am now seeing if it ripened enough to leaven a dough within a reasonable length of time and if it will then I can use the mini refrig. for my builds which will really simplify things as well as making things a lot more predictable. Really helps to have a willing taster I can depend on. Hopefully within a week or two I will be able to establish a new pattern that will work and get me to my goal of having as sweet of a desem as I can manage without loosing my mind :*).

I really appreciate you taking the time to respond. I know your time is precious divided up with family and baking etc of your own and that free time is hard to come by.

Take Care,

Janet

Phil, I made the bread today. I put some pictures on my roamnian blog, but I'll cut the loaf tomorrow and I'll write a post here on TFL, too.

link to my romanian blog for the photos: http://codrudepaine.ro/2012/04/my-very-first-desem-bread/

it smells incredible! I can't wait to taste it! I didn't score it, but you can see it cracked by itself. It's a fault? it was underproofed? or my flour was not strong enough to stretch with the oven spring...?

codruta

Hi COdruta,

I have been following your progress here too since I made this loaf a couple of days ago too. Yours looks wonderful! You got a lot more oven spring than I did so I think your flour must have been just right. Really beautiful loaf especially with the 'natural scoring' - just stunning :-)

Take Care,

Janet

P.S. To you and to Phil,

Today I am baking your Olive Herb loaf and I just have to comment on how wonderfully supple and smooth the dough was this morning when I went to shape it. Some doughs are just feel so nice when handling them and this is one of those doughs. I will let you both know how it turns out on the appropriate posts :-)

Looks great Codruta,

The english translation calls it a 'designated bread' ... very funny :)

I don't think the cracking is too much of a fault, perhaps just under-proofed slightly. You got great spring on it and the crust colour is gorgeous. I would be very happy with it ... and that you liked the flavour is even better :)

Whether the flour was strong enough or not is a bit hard to say? Did it start to tear at all when you were shaping or folding it?

Great to see your baking so much

Cheers,
Phil

Oddly, the only time with desem i got the allusive "you sure didnt add honey to this?" was on a fluke day in summer when the ferment and proof were really hot (like high 30s c). Unfortunately I lost my notes and have not been able to reproduce it. It goes against all the rules of desem so not sure what happened.

May I gather Pip's 2 1/2 hour bulk ferment is at 24c like the proof, not the 10-20c used for the other elaborations?