Hi,
my mixed rye breads are getting more and more satisfying to my tongue, at least as far as the crumb is concerned, but the crust is simply pathetic: initially it seems to be dry and crunchy, but after one hour it begins to tenderize and become soft and gummy, horrid to to say the truth.
The bread below - a 30% rye bread- shows very well the poorness of the crust (
p.f.: 150 gr rye flour, 250 gr water, 10 gr rye starter, 12 hours
dough: 10 gr of salt, 150 gr water, 350 gr pizza flour
).
I preheated a casserole on the fire for several minutes, them moved the dough in it (supported by oven paper), covered the casserole and baked the bread at 250°C for 30 minutes covered and 45 minutes outside the casserole.
The crumb is sweet, very soft and very creamy (it seems to have been abundantly spread with butter),
but the crust had better not be there at all.
How to make the crust better without drying the crumb?
How long do you let this bread cool before cutting into it?
Jeff
8 hours
You realize that ryes hold moisture and over time will soften a crust. So, what do you want from your crust? you seem to be baking it at hig temps in search of a crispy crust and that's just not very rye-like. And, what do you mean by pizza flour? 00?
You realize that ryes hold moisture and over time will soften a crust. So, what do you want from your crust? you seem to be baking it at hig temps in search of a crispy crust and that's just not very rye-like. And, what do you mean by pizza flour? 00?
yes, I used 00 flour specific for pizza (a 00 flour stronger than the usual 00 cake flour but weaker than a bread flour, the best comprimised I found to get a crumb that feels soft and not chewy). I'm trying to get a crispy crust and soft crumb, hoping it's possible:)
Spelt? or Kamut?
or a hardy fresh ground Einkorn? Substitute 50g nut flour?
Here is where the potato water comes into it's own... for a nice flavoured crust! Bread Spices? Pat a nice nut oil on the loaf surface when shaping.
Don't wrap the loaf after cooling, keep the cut side down and put into a bread box.
Mini. As written above I used pizza flour because it gives me the stucture of the crumb I'm searching, while the 30% prefermented rye flour gives me plenty of taste. Spelt, Kamut and Einkorn flours that I can find here are far too weak to give an open structure like that, unforunately.
Potato water is a great idea!
Hi, nico.
You have a boule made with about 1 kg of dough baking at 250 dC for 75 minute, the first 30 of which are covered.
That's a long bake for this size loaf, and at a high temperature. Also, the loaf is covered for a very long time. I think you would get better results baking at 230-235 dC for 50-55 minutes and uncovering the loaf after 15 minutes.
The benefits of steam end when the crust starts to form. You can tell this by the crust starting to color. After that, steam probably has a detrimental effect on crust texture.
You may just want to judge when the dough is baked by thumping it or using an instant-read thermometer.
Let us know if these modifications do the trick for you. I'm betting they will.
David
You are probably right that I'm oversteaming the loaf. Next time I'll follow your baking schedule and report. Thanks!
I bake this rye (80% hydration) in a pre-heated dutch oven for 45 minutes at 435 degrees F, 10 minutes covered and 35
uncovered.
does the crust hold its crunchyness?
I want to add that I'm forced to use very high hydratations because this particular flour I'm using is a by product of successive sievings, thus it's very finely milled bran concentrate (a 100% poolish becomes a firm dough) .
from the air. Could this be happening?
I've never had a crust get more crispy as when it's fresh from the hot oven. Crumb moisture will migrate from crumb to crust and evaporate if it can.
If the high hydration is needed for crumb structure, what do you think about baking a flatter loaf like a focaccia so more water can steam off in the oven after the crumb is formed. ??? :)
with all the humidity that is present down here. Bologna is not exactly known for its dry climate. You are always spot-on, Mini!
Rye doesn't help to keep things dryer, either.
at 220° for 70 minutes, removing the bread from the casserole after the first 15 minutes, but the crumb is still soggy:-(
This time around I used the gas oven leaving the door ajar for the last 10 minutes, but I'm still at the same point. I'm beginning to suspect a post-bake enzymatic activity. You know how things can get mysterious when there's rye involved. This bread was a 50/50 durum and pizza flours, but started with a tiny rye inoculation.
Hi Nico,
I'm very sorry to hear that you're still struggling with the crust! I'm also surprised that changing some of the baking variables didn't do much to improve your result...
I could have this all wrong, but I thought the significant chemical reactions happened during the initial heating of the bread (i.e. first part of the bake), before the temperature kills off bacteria? The enzymatic activity in rye can have disastrous effects on the crumb if the dough is not acidified, but, as far as I know, this is also something that happens during the early stages of the bake. Of course, things can get mysterious... ;-)
You say that the soggy crust is a problem with your mixed rye breads, but if I understand correctly, you also get soggy crusts with all-white breads (50/50 durum/pizza flour)? So it's not related to a specific type of bread? Is this an issue that has popped up recently, or has this been a long-standing challenge? Have you changed any other variables recently, such as your oven, steaming setup or choice of rye flour for your starter? If you think the problem has to do with enzymatic activity, you could try a different rye flour and/or perhaps altering the feeding regimen of your starter?
On a related note, I recently bought a few kgs of whole rye flour from a different supplier than I use to. Both suppliers are large (the two largest in Norway), that deliver flour to commercial bakeries and for sale to home bakers via grocery stores. Early last week, I started feeding my starter with whole rye flour from the other supplier, and within a couple of feedings, the starter looked like it was dying on me... When it previously took roughly 10 - 12 hours for it to triple in volume and be perfectly ripe, it now didn't even double in 36 hours. It also looked a lot more soupy; things were definitely going on in there, but it didn't look healthy at all. I quickly swapped back to my regular supplier of rye flour in a last ditch effort to save the starter - and what do you know? It bounced back from the edge to its former self in two feedings. I remember running into problems with the whole rye flour of the other supplier on two previous occasions as well - I thought it was only a coincidence and that I was unlucky with a "bad batch" of flour, but when this stuff is happening repeatedly, I'll stick to my trusted supplier from now on. Well... please excuse my rambling, Nico, but I just wanted to explain why, in my experience, changing the brand of flour could be worth a shot.
If you think the issue is related to the oven, do you think you could bring the proofed dough over to a friend and bake it in a different oven? If it works out, I'm sure whoever volunteers their oven would appreciate one of your loaves, Nico.
Hi HansJoakim, my baking setup is quite problematic, I'd say rocambolic. I can try to add a container at the bottom with very little water within, but not remove it during baking (I can't totally open the oven door).
The crumb is moist only when there's a significant amount of rye in the dough, the 50%/50% durum/pizza bread isn't moist and doesn't stick.
I will keep you posted, Hans Joakim. Thanks for the link!
I'm very sorry we're not able to offer you any more specific advice at this point, especially so since I well know how frustrating soggy crusts can be. I hope that testing out a new steaming setup can improve a little on this. I'm pretty sure this is related to the baking parameters, including steam and oven temperature, and/or the flour.
Thanks for keeping me posted - I'll also do some more reading and research on the subject, and we'll stay in touch until we've got it figured out.
Finally my problem seems to be solved. After all they were due to temperature and suboptimal oven.
I obtained crackly crusts in my gas oven baking at 230° starting from cold oven for 55 minutes, paying attention to insert the griddle just above the middle rack. Very impressive oven spring, too, that doesn't hurt:) Great results even with 25% rye doughs. Keeping the bread in a cloth bag with a tiny sheet of film to prevent the crumb from drying saves both the tenderness of the crumb and the crackliness of the crust.
Even in my new SHARP R-898 combination microwave oven I had very good results. This oven is particular because it simulates convection using an infrared grill at the bottom and a quartz grill at the top. Baking from cold oven at 220° for 60 minutes I obtained breads comparable to the ones baked in the gas oven, with the minor defect of small scorched areas at the top. Very interesting is the combination of convection+microwave: at 220°+90W during the last 20 minutes the bread is ready in just 40 minutes.
Oven spring in this small oven is even more impressive. Evidently -as I always thought- heat from the bottom is what really makes the difference.