My series of San Francisco-style sourdough bread bakes has featured several variations of levain elaboration, leaving the final dough ingredients and procedures essentially constant. Today's variation involved using a firm starter to activate the stock starter and building the stiff levain which is mixed in the final dough in three steps, rather than two. In addition, rather than retarding an intermediate build, I retarded the stiff levain.
You may also note that the activation and intermediate builds used a flour mixture of 75% AP and 25% WW flour. Re-reading my class notes from the SFBI Artisan II workshop, I was reminded that this was the feeding mixture recommended by the SFBI instructor. I thought I would give it a try.
Feeding the starter twice in 24 hours demonstrated a dramatic increase in the leavening power of the starter. The second feeding expanded dramatically faster than the first. And, even though the total fermentation time (not counting the overnight retardation) of the stiff levain was shorter than previous versions, it was very nicely expanded.
I started with my stock refrigerated 50% starter that had been fed last weekend. That feeding consisted of 50 g active starter, 100 g water and 200 g starter feeding mix. My stock starter feeding mix is 70% AP, 20% WW and 10% whole rye flour.
I activated the starter with a feeding of 20 g stock starter, 25 g water, 37 g of AP and 13 g of WW flour. This was fermented at room temperature for 16 hours. I then built an intermediate starter using 40 g of the activated starter, 50 g of water, 75 g of AP and 25 g of WW flour. This second build was fermented at room temperature for 12 hours. I then mixed the stiff levain.
Stiff levain | Bakers' % | Wt (g) for 1 kg | Wt (g) for 2 kg |
Bread flour | 95 | 78 | 157 |
Medium rye flour | 5 | 4 | 8 |
Water | 50 | 41 | 82 |
Stiff starter | 80 | 66 | 132 |
Total | 230 | 189 | 379 |
Dissolve the starter in the water. Add the flour and mix thoroughly until the flour has been completely incorporated and moistened.
Ferment at room temperature for 6 hours, then refrigerate for 14 hours.
Take the levain out of the refrigerator and ferment at 85ºF for 3 hours.
Final dough | Bakers' % | Wt (g) for 1 kg | Wt (g) for 2 kg |
AP flour | 90 | 416 | 832 |
WW Flour | 10 | 46 | 92 |
Water | 73 | 337 | 675 |
Salt | 2.4 | 11 | 22 |
Stiff levain | 41 | 189 | 379 |
Total | 216.4 | 999 | 2000 |
Method
In a stand mixer, mix the flour and water at low speed until it forms a shaggy mass.
Cover and autolyse for 90 minutes
Add the salt and levain and mix at low speed for 1-2 minutes, then increase the speed to medium (Speed 2 in a KitchenAid) and mix to get early window paning. (This took about 10 minutes.) Add flour and water as needed. The dough should be rather slack. It should clean the sides of the bowl but not the bottom.
Transfer to a lightly floured board and do a stretch and fold and form a ball.
Place the dough in a lightly oiled bowl and cover tightly.
Ferment at 76º F for 3 1/2 to 4 hours with a stretch and fold at 50 and 100 minutes.
Divide the dough as desired. (Note: I had made 2 kg of dough which I divided into 1 1 kg piece and two 500 g pieces.)
Pre-shape as rounds and rest, covered, for 10 minutes.
Shape as boules or bâtards and place in bannetons. Place bannetons in plastic bags.
Proof at room temperature (68-70º F) for 2-3 hours.
Cold retard the loaves overnight (12-14 hours).
The next morning, proof the loaves at 85º F for 3 hours. (If you can't create a moist, 85 degree F environment, at least try to create one warmer than “room temperature.”)
45-60 minutes before baking, pre-heat the oven to 480º F with a baking stone and steaming apparatus in place.
Transfer the loaves to a peel. Score the loaves as desired, turn down the oven to 460º F, steam the oven, and transfer the loaves to the baking stone.*
After 15 minutes, remove the steaming apparatus, and turn down the oven to 435º F/Convection. (If you don't have a convection oven, leave the temperature at 460º F.)*
Bake for another 15 minutes.*
Turn off the oven, and leave the loaves on the stone, with the oven door ajar, for another 15 minutes.
Transfer the loaves to a cooling rack, and cool thoroughly before slicing.
*Note: I baked the two smaller boules first – 15 minutes at 460ºF with steam, then 15 minutes at 435ºF convection bake. I then baked the 1 kg boule after reheating the oven for 25 minutes – 15 minutes at 450ºF, then another 25 minutes at 430ºF.
San Francisco-style Sourdough, large boule
San Francisco-style Sourdough, large boule crumb
San Francisco-style Sourdough, small boule
San Francisco-style Sourdough, small boule crust close-up
San Francisco-style Sourdough, small boule crumb
San Francisco-style Sourdough, small boule crumb close-up
The appearance of the loaves was like those previously baked, as were the crust and crumb structure. However, the flavor had a prominent sourdough tang. This bread was quite similar to the bake I blogged on March 19, 2012 (See: My San Francisco Sourdough Quest, Take 4)
This is the crunchy crust, chewy crumb, moderately sour loaf I was after … at least it's close. I cannot say it replicates the “Wharf Bread” from Parisian Bakery I ate in San Francisco years ago. It has a less sweet, more whole grain flavor. The crust is thicker and crunchier. The crumb structure is more open. But it's a keeper. This is the one I'll be making from now on ... or until I can't resist tweaking it further.
I think it would go great with Dungeness crab!
David
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Hi David,
All three loaves look wonderful to me.
Your SFSD Take 4 was fabulous-tasting bread - I am quite keen to make that again, and to try this version, too.
Thank you!
:^) breadsong
This one is more sour than ver. 4, especially the next day.
Let us know how you like it!
David
Love the look of the crust and crumb - and what else is there? Well, flavour and texture of course, but can't sample those unfortunately. Sound great from your description.
Now to a query. I am puzzled that you are able to extend the dough proofing so far without ending up with an overproofed loaf. Not sure you saw my post on one of your other SF SD blogs, but whatever, despite vowing to follow directions to the letter for a change, I found the proofing times far too long and just had to reduce them. I would have ended up with a pancake if I'd stuck to the long proof times in your recipe. Weirdly, also, my ambient temp is around 24C/75F at the moment, which is higher than your 68-70º (20-21C) in Step 10, but lower than your 85F (29C) in Step 12. I know from my summer bakes that my doughs race away at 29C. I'd be able to manage a FP of 30mins or so at that temp before overproofing.
I have taken to reducing the proportion of starter in my doughs in higher ambient temps in the interests of maintaining proof times long enough to allow good flavour development, but I notice your starter proportion is relatively high @ 41%!
I understand that the extended fermentation is an element of your process contributing to the qualities of the finished product, but how you manage to get away with such long proofs without overproofing has me baffled. Any ideas?
Cheers
Ross
In general, if your ideal proofing times are shorter than mine, go with the dough. Your choice to try a smaller Levain percentage makes sense, if you need to slow things down. Alternatives would be to proof at a lower temperature.
However, I want to be sure I understand which stage is moving faster for you than for me.
1. Bulk fermentation?
2. Proofing before retardation?
3. Proofing after retardation?
If you are getting pretty much the same bulk fermentation times as I am, I wouldn't worry about a shorter proofing time. Just do what the dough requires. Most of the flavor development happens during bulk fermentation (with the exception of very large loaves, e.g., 4-5 lbs or more). For example, it may work better for you to retard right after shaping, and let the loaves proof for only an hour before baking. Or, proof for 1-2 hours after shaping, then retard and bake the loaves right out of the fridge. I'm guessing that these sorts of adjustments wouldn't cause a major change in flavor.
And, in the interest of full disclosure, the large boule proofed about 45 minutes longer than the small ones. I would say it was over-proofed. It had a slight deflation when I scored it, but it had a partial recovery with oven spring. Still, its profile is much flatter than that of its smaller siblings. In hindsight, I should have left it in the fridge for an extra hour after I removed the smaller boules.
I hope these rambling thoughts make some sense.
David
Yes, thanks for your comments David, but I always do go by the dough rather than recommended proofing times in recipes. Just wondered why my dough wouldn't slow down to cruisin' speed as yours evidently did. I did follow your leaven and dough formulae exactly - but I'm obviously not using the same flours, and my starter will have different characteristics also, so those factors might go some way to explaining the differences in dough behaviour.
Re your request for clarification re my proofing (I'll use your enumeration):
1. I stuck to the long 2 hour autolyse (as per Quest 4), and also adhered to your bulk fermentation time (3.5 hours, with my ambient temp being 24C). However, I did go against the signals the dough was sending out in this stage. As with most of the other SD breads I've been doing at 24C or thereabouts, the bulk proof was complete in my judgment after about 2 - 2.5 hours.
2. I had to dispense with the pre-retardation proof altogether.
3. After retardation, I gave it 1.5 hours final proof. I dared not extend the FP further - I felt the dough was ready at 1 hour. There were early signs of overproofing in the finished loaf, but as you can see from the crumb pics I posted on your Quest 4 thread, was still a very nice bread.
To phrase my ponderings another way, your proofing times in all stages here are longer than in most SD bread recipes I have tried. Interested in your thoughts on why, say, your San Joaquin SD, which has fairly typical bulk and final proof times assuming an ambient temp of around 24C, would likely be way overproofed if you applied the proof times of the SF SD. I should add, I have adapted your San Joaquin to my own preferred process and schedule (not so different from yours, BTW), and am only going on memory of your original SJ recipe. Maybe your SJ proofing times are longer than I use or recall.
Cheers!
Ross
I don't think we are going to be able to account for the differences completely without being able to literally look over each other's shoulder. I can say that I let fermentation of the levain builds and the dough in bulk go longer than I usually would, in the interest of building acidity. To a lesser degree, I'm letting the loaves proof a bit more completely. This is partly for cosmetic reasons. One key to getting very even bloom in a checkerboard scoring pattern is to proof fully enough so your cuts don't progress to bursts. You want good oven spring, but not too good.
Besides the intentionally extended times, there are possibly other variables in play. These might include starter activity levels, differences in our personal standards for assessing proofing, slight differences in ambiant temperature leading to differences in culture activity. Most likely, it's a combination of factors with accumulated effects.
I can also say that I like the way these breads are turning out. I can't see anything that suggests they are over-fermented or over-proofed. If I decide the current method results in bread that's too sour, I think I have a better feel for how to manipulate that variable than I did before.
David
Yep - we're not going to nail this difference in proofing experiences through discussion. Your thoughts on possible factors at play are along the same lines as mine.
The exchange has brought up a couple of interesting angles that hadn't occurred to me, though:
1. Your point about not wanting too much oven spring with a checkerboard scoring pattern. I usually do batards with either a slash down the middle or two or three angled down the long central axis. In both cases, I'd rather err on the side of more spring, rather than less. So there's an important difference between us to do with both shaping and scoring. I often discount loaf shape as a fairly insignificant factor, which clearly is not always a valid perspective.
2. Searching for answers outside this thread, I came upon an observation on a home baking blog that lower hydration breads generally need longer proofing times. I'd come across that previously, and of course it makes sense when you think about it. If I recall correctly, at the beginning of your quest to develop a SF-style SD you did have a low hydration dough. Then I look at your hydration with this current formula and note that it is back up to higher levels, so low hydration = longer proofing times is not a relevant equation with this 'Take 6' version. Whatever, it was good to be reacquainted with this little bit o knowledge.
Oh, absolutely. I never meant to imply that you had pushed the fermentation/proofing too far, if that's what you inferred. It's obvious from both your crust and crumb pics that the bread is beautifully proofed. And the exploration of ways to tune the sourness to optimal has been one of the most interesting aspects of the series.
Cheers!
Ross
These questions encourage critical thinking, and I appreciate them.
My comment that you quoted was not an inference, just a reality check. If I nit-pick my bake, and I tend to do so, I might have cut the proof time by a few minutes on the larger boule. The problem was oven capacity and the belief that the larger boule would stand a longer proof than the smaller ones. This was less true than I had hoped.
BTW, we've just finished the second half of a loaf of "version 4." It had been frozen for several weeks. There was no freezer burn and little drying out. The sour tang was very present. It made delicious toast, sandwiches and the last of it was consumed tonight as garlic bread with some sautéed butterfish (aka black cod, aka sable) filets and roasted asperagus with a balsamic glaze.
My plan for the weekend is to make some baguettes with version 6 dough, and maybe a pizza or two with the same. I'm going to do two 50% hydration feedings, 12 hours apart, then retard the starter overnight before mixing the dough. Stay tuned!
Regards,
David
... can't get away with your proofing times, either, David. Though it's abundantly clear they work for you.
My sourdough loaves, using a lower percentage of levain than in your recipe above, would be - well, not toast, if you'll forgive a feeble crack, but more like porridge. (Yet my ambient temps are not so very far removed from yours. And so too is the hydration level).
I know I couldn't proof to the extent you do, because in the spirit of experimentation, I recently popped a couple of shaped loaves into the chiller immediately after shaping - no room temperature proofing at all. They went in about 5.00 pm and I left them there to shiver overnight. By 5.00 am in the morning, they were pathetically whimpering "please - bake me, bake me!". By the time I had the oven fired up and could put them out of their misery, they were bubbling in their beer - and I had thoroughly overproved dough. That was a retardation of just 13 and a half hours. The next time I bake, I will try a retardation of just 10 hours and see how that fares. I say in the spirit of experimentation, because normally, I just play safe and only retard for 4-8 hours, and then let them finish off at room temperature if necessary.
For the sheer hell of it, I would love to know for sure what combination of factors are at play that enable you to prolong your proofing way beyond that Ross and I can get away with ... but alas, I must agree with you, it's likely to remain yet another sweet mystery of life!
By the way - congratulations, those are splendiferous sourdough specimens - as is every bread you conjour.
All at Sea
Wow. Crowning the weekend with a bake like that must surely make Mondays a lot more palatable, so to speak. I can only dream -- the magic ingredient I'll need to ever snap photos like those in my kitchen: Photoshop.
An inspiration, as always. Thanks for sharing all the details.
Tom
A satisfying Sunday bake makes me want to stay home and bake some more. Mondays are "more palatable" only in the literal sense - I have Sunday's bread for breakfast, lunch and dinner on Monday.
I appreciate your kind words.
David
David,
I have now had 3 goes at making your Take 4 Sourdough and, thanks to your helpful advice (And another close viewing of Hamelman's excellent videos - there is so much to learn in there, if you blink you miss something important) my hand skills have improved (I guess, I agree with you, that the more I practice, the better I will get) to the point where I am now able to handle the wet dough without major problems.
I persevered because the taste and flavour is well worth it and I am looking forward to trying Take 6 this coming week.
My experiences with this method, and hence my question, is identical to Ross. My house runs at about 68-70º (20-21C) in Step 10 and I find that the dough is ready to bake after 2 hours and seriously overproofs even if I put it in the fridge. I make the 2kg batch so I bake one immediately and try to slow the other one down in the fridge for an hour before I can get it into the now vacant oven (A bit over proofed). The first one is always better looking and is not prone to collapsing like the second one.
Like Ross, I understand that the extended fermentation is an element of your process contributing to the qualities of the finished product, but how you manage to get away with such long proofs without overproofing has me baffled also. Any ideas?
Kind regards,
Brian
See my response to Ross, above.
As a matter of principle, always do what the dough tells you. The clock isn't what's ultimately important.
If your loaves are ready to bake in 47 minutes, bake 'em then! If you like the result, fine. If you don't like the result, then you can worry about what else to change to compensate.
David
Beautiful blistering there David. Is that really your final bake?! I think not. I keep on telling myself the same thing, but somehow I just keep on wanting to try one more thing. :)
Lovely baking,
Syd
It is really my final bake ... of the weekend, anyway.
I am curious about the effects of various modifications ... What would an all AP version be like? How would a version omitting the retardation of the formed loaves taste? What if I boosted the whole grain flour to, say, 40 or 60%? I must make seeded baguettes with this dough! I bet pizza crust with this dough would be fantastic! What if I retarded the dough in bulk, rather than the formed loaves? Etc., etc., etc..
David
Hi David,
I was surprised that you turned the oven down to 335F/Convection on the smaller boules -- ut seems pretty low, is that something you typically do with smaller loaves?
I made another variation of your take 4 this weekend, but I was only able to do one stretch and fold, and I could see the difference in the crumb which was tighter than usual. Still, as I eat the bread the day after baking, I'm really appreciating it's chewiness. I look forward to trying your latest iteration.
It should be "435." I fixed it.
I'm looking forward to your comments on this version.
David
A previous version, I think the first one you posted, and have been waiting for the final. Have been following your process and using it in other bakes, like your Pulgliesi and have found similar results and come to similar conclusions. The house is 85 right now and would be perfect for the final proof but have no idea what to do for the ferment :-) Will have wait for the A/C to get on in a couple of weeks.
Nice bake all around as usual David.
When you make it, let us know how it turns out.
David
Glossy crumb and a beautiful, blistered crust- wish I could reach through my screen and have a piece.
I think Floyd's working on that feature. ;-)
David
your picture perfect breads are always an inspiration, David, and I admire your dedication to achieve the perfect San Francisco or San Joaquin sourdoughs. I didn't follow a lot of earlier posts (too busy - not desinterested.)
I made one of your San Joaquin Sourdough versions several times and we love it. But this bread now looks so tempting that I will close my ears to the cats' reproachful mewing, the dog's pityful whining, ignore the dust gathering in the corners, the constantly ringing phone, send my husband to the "Thirsty Whale" and turn all my energies to this bread....
Karin
Dedication. Persistance. Obsession. Perseveration. ... Whatever.
Thanks for your kind words, Karin!
I eagerly await the results of your bake. The Thirsty Whale sounds like it might be a great place to do the waiting.
David
So far everything went quite well. Our enclosed porch created the perfect fermenting environment with the sun shining in the windows.
Since the dough was very soft, I found Andrew Whitley's instruction helpful (from making Arkatena Bread) to flop the boules into a bowl with flour to coat them before placing them into the bannetons.
Now the breads are proofing before going overnight in the fridge.
I'm very curious how they will turn out.
Karin
Everything went really well (I used my 75% whole wheat starter as base) and my rising times were almost identical. But I made one mistake: since I very rarely retard a shaped loaf in the refrigerator (only Pane Sicilianos, and they are not in bannetons).
Instead of lining my rising baskets with heavily floured towels, I used floured bannetons without towels, and, as I should have known, the highly hydrated dough absorbed the flour and stuck. It took me a while to extricate the risen loaves from the baskets, and they looked a bit like wrinkled newborns.
Also, the breads had a drier skin, probably because I proofed them in the oven - the tops were covered, but I had taken the bannetons out of the big plastic bags. So scoring was difficult and snaggy. (David, how do you prevent dry skins with such long proofing times in baskets?)
But they lost their unsightly wrinkles during the bake, and came out like this:
Though, compared with David's stunning pageant winners my loaves are somewhat homely. But they have a nice crumb, and I love the taste, hearty with a subtle tangy note.
Karin
I'm intrigued by your use of your 75% WW starter. I seldom use starters other than my stock one - rye breads and Tartine BCB being exceptions. I did like the desem I made. More experiments to do! But, where's the time?
I'm glad you enjoyed the bread!
For both proofing and retarding, I put the bannetons in food grade pastic bags. The are water tight. Often there is condensed water on them by the end of the process, but no drops on the loaf surface. I don't think I have a photo of this, but I can take one when I proof the other breads that are currently in bulk fermentation.
David
Despite what you said is a mistake, i must say that you have made a wonderful bread there.
Beautiful open crumb, and i think that the crust is so crisp.
What's the hydration of your 75% WW starter?
Very well done Karin :-)
Izzat
Just thought to tell you, that in order to avoid similar incidents of loaf sticking to proofing basket i usually use for dusting either fine semolina or bran. Personally i prefer the latter since it adds a nice flavor to the bread besides it's very effecient action in preventing sticking.
Izzat
Thank you, Izzat!
The whole wheat starter has 75% hydration - it is my default mother starter for any kind of levain I want to make.
I actually do not see a big difference in using either higher or lower hydration mother starter in formulas where you need such a small amount. The minimal difference in water can be always easily adjusted later, so I would not be too anal about getting it to the very same level of hydration (as given in the recipe) for the first step.
The bran for flouring the basket is not a bad idea. I think I could have avoided that issue with lining the basket with a towel, and not just flouring the coils.
Karin
I see. So Karin you always use your 75% hydrated mother starter regardless of what the recipe calls for?
I do that way, and to compensate whatever difference in starter hydration the recipe calls for i usually play with hydration of the final dough. But of course i play with it based on baker's math on a precise manner.
Izzat.
Thanks, David for sharing this recipe. I hadn't gotten around to testing your earlier attempts, so I went straight to this version when I was ready to try it for this weekend. I usually keep a 100% hydration starter, so I converted part of it to your 50% levain with the refresh, then refreshed a second time and built it into the levain per your formula. The dough is really easy to handle.
I must say that this is one of the tastiest breads! The very wheaty - nutty flavor presumably is due to the 50% levain, since that is the most notable difference from my other breads. The acidity is moderate, quite good, even the next day. Thanks for the great formula. I'll be making it again for sure! I just wish I could get your blistering...just something else to work on.
-Brad
Those are great looking breads Brad. I wouldn't worry about the blisters. To me the crust of your breads - particularly the batard on the left of the photo - looks like the real deal SF SD to me. Crumb is beautiful too.
Did you find the flavor improved after a day?
Thanks, bnom. I'm very happy with the loaves. The tartness increased a bit the second day, as is usual, but otherwise the taste didn't change much. It still had the nuttiness and what I characterize as the "shredded wheat" flavor. I recommend it highly.
As for the blisters, not really worried about them (too much). I would like to understand what factors affect them. So far, all the breads where I have gotten them are retarded as David says. Certainly the steam is a factor, and there seems to be a relation to the dough hydration. The largest blisters for me are typically on breads lower than 65% hydration, though I haven't done enough serious experimentation to prove it to myself yet.
-Brad
I'm really happy you like this bread.
Sometimes I get the blisters with retarded loaves, but not always. I don't know why. I think I can say they are more prominent with loaves that are baked less dark.
David
David, that is my default starter (from "Whole Grain Breads"). I also have a 100% hydration rye sourdough, but I use that mostly for my weekly Pain a l'Anciennes (that I sell).
Though I always tried to tweak the water to achieve the hydration specified in a recipe for the mother starter, I came to realize that for those very small amounts it doesn't really make too much difference.
In the end you can always adjust with more water or flour in the final dough. For my SF Sourdough I added quite a bit of water to the final dough to get to the right consistency, my flours will be different from yours, etc.
I will definitely make this tasty bread again (ate one loaf already), but pay more attention to dry skin prevention next time.
Karin
Hello David,
6. Ferment at 76º F for 31/2 to 4 hours with a stretch and fold at 50 and 100 minutes.
I do not understand the ...for 31/2 to 4 hours ...
Diane
3 1/2-4 hours. Is that clearer? 3.5 to 4.0?
David
I'm so blonde. Excuse me dear David.
Your servant sir, Diane
I followed this one very closely. It's delicious although I can't say I detect any notable difference from the Take 4 version in terms of flavor. The crust seems crunchier, and the starter was more robust. It baked up with good ovenspring and a blistery russet crust. Unfortunately, the slashes did not open (and my quest to master this new gas oven continues).
Version 4 vs 6: I found the same thing.
Good luck mastering your new stove!
David
hopefully in prep for baking it notice your 953 figure in the formula is incorrect. Should be 1000. Sorry to pick but I can't help it when I see a bad number. -Varda
Thanks, Varda.
I did a quick adding up and actually got 999.
I'm not sure where the error occurred, but I'll fix it.
David
David,
Finally I got something right (Well almost) after struggling 3 times with Version 4.
I followed your Version 6 recipe, apart from putting the baskets in the fridge as soon as they were filled. Additionally they required only 60 minutes of final proofing, at 70 C, once out of the fridge, before baking.
The loaves look great (Not quite as neat as yours yet - Still work in progress on moulding and shaping) and the flavour is absolutely fantastic - I can now (Honestly) say thank you very much for providing a recipe which works for me. I think the reduction to 68% overall hydration in Version 6 makes life so much easier than the 71% hydration of Version 4.
Thanks again,
Brian
I'm really happy you are enjoying this bread!
I'm intrigued by your short proof. How big were your loaves? Did the loaves explode with oven spring?
My 1 kg loaves really needed 2+ hours proofing.
David
I do judge degree of proofing by the poke test, but not solely. I watch loaf expansion, although I think the poke test is more representative of what's really going on in the loaf. I also feel how "airy" the loaf feels. These are generalizations. I do think when a particular bread is perfectly proofed is variable, and judging this requires accumulated experience with the same type of bread that's being judged.
The poke test works best for doughs that aren't too slack. I'm not sure what the cut-off is - maybe 72%-75% hydration. However, when a bread is at the ideal point to bake depends on the bread, and how you want it to behave in the oven.
I first got an inkling of this from Norm Berg (nbicomputers on TFL and co-author of Inside the Jewish Bakery) 3 or 4 years ago. He was talking about the difference in proofing between onion rolls and kaiser rolls, which are made with exactly the same dough.
So, with these breads that I am planning to score in a "tic-tac-toe" pattern, under-proofing will lead to greater oven spring and uneven bloom of the cuts - probably with some blow-outs. If I want a very even bloom, I will err on the side of over-proofing. Of course, if I over-proof too far, the oven spring and bloom will be less than I want. In contrast, with a batard or baguette where I want exhuberant oven spring, a big bloom and ears, I err on the side of under-proofing. This is really attempting to fine tune things for aesthetics. It seems to work, usually. Does 15 or 30 minutes make that much difference in the eating quality of the bread? Probably not.
David
Hi David,
I was following your experiments. Really stunning breads!
I was struggeling with wheat starters for a while, but thanks to Frank Sally's article (which you made us aware of) my wheat starter is doing well now.
I have to try your formula as soon as I can.
Juergen
Looking forward to hearing about your bake of this bread.
David
although I didn't quite manage the exact proofing schedule as in your formula due to family activities (and nerves...). More specifically, I didn't manage to fit in the long cold retard plus 3 hours warm proof before baking.
I learned a lot along the way ( I now feel comfortable with wheat sourdoughs at last). Great experience to make this.
My crumb turned out to have a more fine-grained texture - I attribute this mostly to the flour I am currently using. Volume, texture and taste are great. I had some similar effects with straight baguettes. The ones made with my "standard" flour had small regular holes, whereas the ones made with French T55 flour from the artisan bakery around the corner had big irregular holes...
I certainly will make this again, with some more reliable scheduling.
Thanks again for posting.
Juergen
I'm glad you enjoyed it.
David
David,
The title, above, says most of it - Although you wouldn't think so after you get to the stuff below.
Some would debate that retardation is actually part of the final proofing -So it is not that short if you accept that point of view - Which I do.
I make a lot (For a home baker) of Hamelman's (predominantly) white wheat (12.4% protein) sourdough breads and always get really good expansion/oven spring - These loaves were just the same, I could not wish for better - Always a little flat going into the oven (Which incidently I can not get above 250C - I FEEL ANOTHER QUESTION COMING ON FOR YOU IN A MINUTE !) but stood to attention at about the 8-10 minute mark. The big batard was particularly attractive (My wife said, and I presume she was referring to my loaf) and the boule was not a dissappointment either. If I can get one of my newphews to show me how I will put some photos up to show you but be assured they were pretty much identical with other photos on this thread (Nice blistering from a gas oven)
When I did version 4 it was the case that I never got to retard the dough in the brotformen as it was patently ready to bake after 2 hours - Almost spilling over (The 1 Kg brotformen) I wished to see how retardation affected the taste and texture etc, which is why I went straight to fridge after final shaping into brotformen. Retardation was for 12 hours and the baskets were up to the top the next morning and I think I could have baked them immediately from the fridge (Hamelman certainly sees this as a viable option) but I had to wait an hour while my oven came up to temp (See below for next question. The finished loaves were well worth the effort.
Oven temperatures - My oven never gets above 250C, as it happens that is your recommended starting temp for baking these loaves - So far so good. I do not, ever, have to turn my oven down and wonder if others experience what I am about to outline here? I always leave my thermometer in the oven (Old chef habits die hard) so I know what is going on and I find that after quickly loading a big loaf and steaming the oven (I am pretty slick at this by now) the temperature goes down to just about 190/200C and takes another 20-25 minutes to get back up to 230C, at which point I usually turn the loaf upside down on the stone to brown off/harden the bottom for 10 minutes before turning the right way up again to finish. My total bake time is approximately 50 minutes for the 1Kg loaves.
I read lots of recipes which recommend turning the oven temp down at various points and I want to know if I am the only person who's domestic (Well known, good quality - Stoves) oven acts like this. I have baked commercially in big powerful ovens which recover heat very quickly and certainly do require adjustment (Incidently I have found in the past that commercial ovens do not always do what they say either, and need calibratng/chef's knowledge to ensure quality product comes out unscathed) but doubt that domestic ovens require the same attention for the reasons stated above.
Sorry for this long winded text but I can't believe I am the only person who's oven acts like this.
What do you think? Do you monitor actual temperatures as opposed to what it says on the dial/digital display.
Thanks again for the bread - I would not wish the above to obscure my gratitude - I will be making it again very soon.
Kind regards from the North of England,
Brian
I have no experience with gas ovens. From the problems others have reported after switching to them, it sounds like you have yours exceptionally well controlled. Hmmm ... Actually, your oven has you exceptionally well controlled! Whatever. You and your oven have an accommodation.
I haven't checked my oven temperature for years, but the thermostat and the digital readout seem very accurate. It takes about 15-20 minutes to heat to 500 dF with the baking stone in place. It also recovers quickly after being opened, although I try to minimize this. It also heats very evenly. It is a bit hotter in back than front, judging by crust coloration, at least, although the heat source is in the back when the oven is on "convection bake."
Also, it seems you get a lot of loaf expansion in the fridge - more than I do. I need to check the temperature in mine. Could you do the same? That's one variable that, if substantially different, could account in part for differences in out-of-fridge proofing times.
David
as one of "the others" David references who is struggling with the switch to gas oven, I would appreciate hearing Brian's steaming routine.
David - I appreciate your comments on proofing times -- I've been so consumed with adjusting steaming techniques to achieve ears in the new oven that I hadn't thought to underproof.
Thanks, for forcing me to consider the variables which may affect my/your bakes - It is one of the things I like about this forum and which is often a prime motivator for me to amend my methods.
I have a baking "Buddy" near me who has an electric oven which gives him a much more even bake than my gas oven. I know this because he has a spiral mixer which can mix up to 4Kg of dough and we often make a large batch of dough, then split it and bake in our respective ovens. It does not seem to matter which of us is in charge of the bake in our respective homes, so I have accepted that equipment (As well as skill/technique) does clearly make a difference.
My oven, like yours, is a bit hotter in back than front, judging by crust coloration. When I flip my loaves (Which of course does not help heat retention) I also rotate them in an attempt (Usually successful) to even out the bake. The other thing which doesn't help temperature retention is that I have to steam the oven twice to delay (And then get) a decent crust formation, because gas ovens vent more than electric so don't retain steam for very long
I have a double oven - The larger one has the baking stone in it, on which I start the bake at high temperature. Because I commonly bake several loaves in one session I have started using the smaller oven (At 180C/350F) to finish off loaves once they attain the colour I want - This allows me to make better use of the bigger oven at the higher temp with the stone in and drastically reduces overall session baking time, as well as drying the loaves out a bit more without them over browning (I guess this is an alternative to your instruction No 17. "Turn off the oven, and leave the loaves on the stone, with the oven door ajar, for another 15 minutes") This results in them keeping a firmer crust (Which I like) whereas they used to come out of the oven crisp and then soften drastically as moisture came out. Of course not everyone likes a crusty crust. Can't win em all eh!
Ah yes, fridge temperatures, I almost forgot. I have just checked mine - The one in my kitchen is running at 5C/41F and the one, with the beer in it, in my utility/garage, is running at 2C/35. I have now adjusted it to run at the same temp as the other one as the beer is too cold. The last loaves I told you about were in separate fridges at different temperatures and it did not seem to make any difference to how they proofed/baked (Hamelman would expect that to be the case as far as the baking went) but I can't tell you if they taste any different yet because I have only cut into one of them - If I find the second one tastes different I will let you know, otherwise please assume there is no difference.
Thanks again for taking the time try to help me.
Brian
Oh, well. So much for fridge temperature. The fridge I retard loaves in runs at about 41 dF.
Have you tried Sylvia's oven steaming technique with hot and wet towels? I think it has worked well for some with gas ovens.
Another suggestion for a minor tweak: In commercial bakeries with steam injection ovens, some bakers - including Hamelman, if I remember correctly - pre-steam the oven. That is, they inject steam just before loading the oven. Then they steam again just after loading. After trying to do this several ways, I've taken to putting my perforated pie tin with ice cubes on a skillet with lava rocks in the oven just before loading the loaves (which are already on the peel, scored). I think this makes for a little improvement in my oven spring and crust texture. With the ice cubes, there is a few seconds of lag time before steam is generated. If you pour boiling water on your rocks before loading, you would risk a steam burn, unless you wear oven gauntlets when loading. Anyway, give it a thought.
David
Not claiming it's right or perfect - This is what I do, and it works for me.
I have a roasting tray, full of stones off my local beach, on the rack under my baking stone in the oven. When I am ready to put the loaf in the oven I bring a kettle of water to the boil, slash the loaf and spray it lightly with a mist of warm water (To assist with retardation of crust formation) before sliding it off the peel onto the baking stone, swiftly followed by pouring boiling water out of the kettle onto the hot stones in the roasting tray. It is a lot quicker to do than it is to write it down here - The oven door is open for no more than 8-10 seconds. After 2 minutes I introduce more boiling water onto the stones which by now are completely dry - This takes about 5 seconds - No wonder my oven gets cold but I can't see a better option for getting decent oven spring as well as a lovely final crust.
There are slight differences in total baking times according to what kind of loaves I am baking, but generally 400/500g loaves take 25-30 minutes and the 800g/1kg loaves take 40-50 minutes - High hydration loaves can take a few minutes more..
How does that sound to you? Do you do something similar?
Brian
Hi David,
Could you please tell me what's the hydration of the stiff starter that you initially used in building your levain?!!
Thanks,
Izzat.
50%
David
Thanks for the reminder David,
I have not tried Sylvia's oven steaming technique with hot, wet towels but I remember reading that thread some time ago. I have read it again today and I am interested enough to try it next time I bake - Might do some baguettes tomorrow. I will let you know how I get on.
I believe others have tried adapting Sylvia's method by putting the hot wet towels, and a little extra boiling water, on top of their heated stones in a roasting dish and I will try that also as it should give lots of immediate steam as well as the long duration (10 minutes or so) steam which is difficult - nay impossible - for me using my current method/oven. It should also be better on two other counts for me.
1. I only have to open the oven once to steam and put the loaves in which will help heat retention, and
2. No pouring boiling water into a tray beneath my baking stone - Often tricky -I will put the towel tray in the top rack of the oven.
Always excited and looking forward to trying new (To me) techniques - particularly from reliable sources.
Re commercial bakeries with steam injection ovens, pre-steaming the oven just before loading the oven, then steaming again just after loading. I have done this myself in a proper baker's deck, hearth oven and it works just fine, but you have proper internal steaming equipment in that type of oven which, as you undoubtedly know from your training courses, means you do not have to open the oven door to steam - You also probably have a damper arrangement to release steam from such ovens, once the loaves have coloured up, again without opening the oven door.
I have also noted the ice cube method but discounted it on the grounds of the poor heat retention in my oven.
I accept that if you pour boiling water on your rocks before loading, you risk a steam burn - I use a simple "Chef's" heat proof cloth for this kind of operation, but am not advocating this for everyone - NB. I have years of experience working in commercial kitchens where you don't have time to faff about putting gauntlets on and off, as you are doing several other jobs at the same time - As well as the ridicule from "Chef"
Of course - Like every smart A** - I occasionally burn myself, about once every 6 months or so - Suffering for my craft!
Regards,
Brian
Brian -
My bakes have improved dramatically since I started using Sylvia's wet towel technique. It's a great way to go. I use an electric oven, no experience with gas.
-Brad
Steaming towels worked great in my electric. They have so far not worked in my gas. I used them for a couple of bakes and the loaves came out very pale, which is possibly the result of oversteaming. Indeed, when I introduced less steam I had no problem with crust color. The system I've been using lately is very much like yours Brian -- I will be interested to see what results you have from your towel experiments.
Anyway, I don't want to hijack David's post, so will point you to a thread I started after my disappointing results using old techniques in my new oven. On that thread I've tried to log my various experiments.
Barbara
Hi, and thanks Barbara, Thanks to Brad also for confirmation that towels work for him.
I have " read your thread" - It seems pretty obvious that many others will have been down the same route as you and I.
I have come to the conclusion that whilst it is possible to give general, and generic, advice to fellow bakers - And a lot of the books on bread making do - It is impossible to cover all eventualities, there is no "One size fits all" solution to our quest for great bread.
Certainly the difference between gas and electric ovens (Apples and pears spring to mind) is so great that once you have baked in both (As you have) you come to realise the futility of expecting them to react in similar fashion to any particular technique you/I attempt.
I am going to try Sylvia's towel technique, but will not beat myself up if it doesn't work for me as I am getting pretty good results with the method that you and I already use, and will be "Happy to quit while I am ahead".
Cheers,
Brian.
Ps. Hereunder, the ramblings of a madman - Optional reading for those without a nervous disposition, or a short attention span.
For the purpose of this thread I had originally restricted my comment to baking at home, in a domestic oven, but I do have experience of baking with commercial ovens in reasonable (But not threatening the National bakeries) quantities of up to 300 (Hand formed) loaves per shift (Me and one other baker) I have used multi tray convection electric rack ovens both with and without steaming facilities, deck ovens both gas and electric, some with a hearth stone some without, again some with steam some without. They all baked differently - Even in the same oven, some decks bake different to others - Surprise,surprise.
The point being that I have just, after all this time and experience, become alarmed at my own stupidity in thinking there was one solution.
I am a great fan of Jeffrey Hamelman but I often overlook, or forget, his advice (Usually to my detriment). I was rereading his "Bread" book today as I was thinking about our discussions on steaming and it reminded me that his experience of baking professionally on a daily basis for over 30 years revealed that, and he spells it out on line 1, page 1 "It's really quite simple to make a loaf of bread" thereafter he elaborates on the many, constantly changing, interrelated factors upon which the manufacture of great bread depends and which we all struggle with.
It's a wonder we do as well as we do - All things considered, when it seems that no two days are ever quite the same.
Hamelman has quite a bit to say on the subject of steaming ovens -
See pages 26, 27, 88, 89 and 100. I have the 2004 edition. Well worth a look if you have not got it already.
The real point he makes, insofar as it relates to our discussions on this forum, is that in a domestic situation we are fighting a rearguard action in a battle to duplicate the results of professional equipment that costs many thousands of £'s/$, and that we need to establish what works for each of us in our own environment.
On TFL, we live in different countries, with different climates and humidity levels at any given time of year, we bake loaves of varying shapes and sizes with different ingredients/flours, of varying specification, from various different suppliers in several different types and sizes of oven. We make straight dough, dough with several different kinds of preferments of differing strengths and maturity, as well as sourdoughs of varying flours utilised in different % of total dough. We put our shaped dough onto silicone/greaseproof/baking paper or a tray or in a casserole pot, or into a banneton or brotform and then it goes into a warm(Sometimes cold) environment for a bit before going into a red hot box.
We should have no real reasonable expectation that all the above (And much more) will respond to just one perfect method?
But it's fun trying isn't it?
Brian
The most remarkable thing is that, even without the fancy professional ovens, mixers, loaders, sheeters, dividers, retarders, etc., we can make bread at home that's way better than what we can buy in the grocery or even at most bakeries. And "getting there is half the fun."
David