December 19, 2023 - 7:43am
Autolysing and CLAS
I've become quite a fan of CLAS, and use it more often than not in my bakes.
When experimenting and converting recipes to using it, I find that I either use CLAS in a preferment, or autolyse the wheat-based flour and add the CLAS in the main mix.
How about adding CLAS to the autolyse? Is there a downside to this? Does the acidity of CLAS negatively impact the benefits of the simple water & flour autolyse?
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Hi,
I am not sure this addresses your question, but I have used clas in early stages of a rye dough prep-
(Ginsberg Lyu Rye adjusted for clas and whole grain, Lyubitelsky Rye (also bake by CalBeach )).
The diy did not go in until the end (4th) stage. I do not understand the chemical reactions but just followed directions. I read some of rusbrot's use of clas in pre-ferments and some could be an autolyse I suppose it all else involved were flour and water. There were some recipes I read that had been using an autolyse but found them unnecesaary.
Hi Jo, I'm confused. In that recipe, three components have 10-12 hr ferment times. Are they sequential? In parallel? It appears that CLAS was used as an option to the 12-hr 62g H2O + rye flour, and is not part of it, correct?
You're right, it doesn't really address my question. But it brings up a related one. I find that long CLAS preferments are not only not beneficial, but are counterproductive taste-wise. I really prefer to do preferments overnight (9-10 hrs), but the taste goes flat compared to a 3-4 hr preferment.
I'd like to understand why that is, both for the taste and for a very practical reason. A 3-4 hr preferment has to start in the morning, which puts the breadmaking process into the mid-afternoon, when I am least available to do it.
I checked the Ginsberg site for the recipe.
For the Levain and Scald (each 10-12h): I do them in parallel and the Levain has the clas and a bit of diy (to mimic the Step 1-Starter Rye Culture). The Levain has flour, water and rye starter (flour, water, clas,diy) (In the notes, I incorrectly wrote 3.5-4hr on the Levain but the Ginsberg site lists 10-12h.) For clas, 6-8h seems to be enough for the Levain step.
To bake a wheat loaf (whole grain or white flour), I set aside 4.5 hr for the mixing , bulk and final rise and then bake. I hardly ever have an autolyse. The mixing is done and then a 2h bulk follows. End with shape, final rise, bake.
Ask Mariana for understanding the chemistry on lactic acid effects!
I trust/assume Mariana will weigh in at some point. But I think I see my problem more clearly now. Too much CLAS + a long room-temp preferment = exhausted yeast and flat taste.
I re-read some of Rusbrot's (Andrey) posting and was reminded that CLAS was developed primarily to shorten fermentation times in a production environment. The optimum fermentation vs time curve for yeast + bacteria formation varies with dough type but is generally in the 1.5-4 hour range at warm temps.
I was doing 10 hour 15% CLAS preferments @ 75ºF expecting it to work well, and it doesn't. For that amount of time I'd need less CLAS and lower temps.
I tested my conclusion by making the same loaf with more-normal 1.5 hour 80º ferment and 50 min proof and the result was excellent. So I need very different conditions for overnight preferments.
The whole question of autolyse and CLAS preferment remains. Some have opined you don't need to autolyse with CLAS. I'd like to see if that's really the case. I made a loaf last night and moved 1/2 the CLAS out of the preferment and into the main dough. It looks great, will taste-test shortly.