Peter Reinhart's BBA firm starter
Hello, first let me introduce myself since this is my very first post. I recently started baking bread, inspired by Peter Reinhart's Bread Baker's Apprentice book that's been sitting on our shelf for several years. I successfully made his ciabatta and focaccia recipes several times. Now I am working on sourdough, which is giving me headaches.
I have followed the BBA's sourdough recipe. I found this recipe a little confusing. I saw a few posts over here discussing his confusing nomenclature (like the barm) and I find that he skips over a ton of details. But I was able to make a strong seed culture using the pineapple juice method which almost triples in size in about 12 hrs after every 1:1:1 feeding. I then proceeded making the "barm" (as others have noticed before, the recipe produces over 32 oz of barm but then the sourdough recipe only calls for 4 oz which was frustrating to realize).
Then I made what Reinhart calls a firm starter (I guess this is the firm levain?). This went ok: Reinhart recommends using as little water as possible which in my case made a very dry starter which, even though it did rise quite a bit (I would say less than double), it looked really dry and cracked on the surface. I decided to power through and continue with the recipe, so the following day I mixed the firm levain with the rest of the ingredients and kneaded until the temperature was right and it passed the windowpane test. Next, I let it ferment for about 4 hours.
I looked at the result a few minutes ago and it had definitely risen, but it feels a bit dry and it doesn't have a lot of "spring back": it's dense and thick. I cut it into two pieces and reshaped them as best as I can (it's not very elastic), but I didn't see a lot of air bubbles. I worry that I made some critical mistake along the way and the that dough is not gonna turn out well. All YT videos I have seen show a very elastic dough that springs back, while mine feels almost like playdo.
So I guess I have a few questions:
- Is the BBA recipe good to begin with, especially for a beginner?
- Did I make some mistake along the way?
- Is my dough salvageable?
Thank you in advance for the help!
How I like numbers!
Either way - there's some work to do - right from the get go I'm afraid. Enjoy!
It's good to remember that Reinhart evolved his thinking and techniques over the years. Over the course of his next several books he simplified his methods. He also learned a lot about how to develop recipes that a wide range of people would be able to make reliably. I wouldn't get too wrapped up in the exact details what the BBA says.
TomP
So it turns out I didn’t use enough water to make the firm levain (I had doubled the other ingredients but not the water, sigh) so of course it was very dry. I ended up baking the loaves from this dough but unsurprisingly they are extremely doughy, even with substantial oven spring. I guess this is all part of the learning process.
I just refreshed the “barm” using only 4oz of the previous one to minimize waste. Will try this again.
I had read that Reinhart’s technique has evolved over the years. I’m gonna have to get a more recent book or maybe a book specific to sourdough.
Thank you
I hear tell Labrea bakery has a new book out. I had her first book. At that time I was not yet interested in sourdough. I actually traded with a member here. I don't remember what book I received in exchange.
Anyway, I digress. I am thinking of picking up the new La Brea bakery book.
That (the water) makes a big difference. Enjoy!
This Reinhardt book is the one that makes things very simple. I keep my starter around 65-66% hydration and it lives in my refrigerator. When I’m ready to bake I take a piece and create a levain for the final dough. You can look at my posts here and you will see my methods which has evolved from his books.
Good luck and feel free to ask questions here or PM me.
Best,
Ian
Thank you all for the suggestions and recommendations! This method is definitely not working for me. I made two more loaves today with the correct amount of water. The loaves are sad and flat with minimal oven spring. The crust looks uniform and tight, not crackly and bubbly. They are still hot so I don’t know how doughy the inside is going to be but I’m not super hopeful.
I’m going to try some different techniques because the BBA one is really not working for me. I’m not sure if my starter is the problem or it’s something I’m doing wrong.
I saw some YT videos where people would fold their sourdough every hour during bulk fermentation. That worked very well for ciabatta for me so maybe I’ll give it a try.
How much and how often should ideally be a response to how the dough feels rather than just an exercise by the clock. If the dough remains persistently slack it probably needs more stretching. Sometimes even when one goes to shape the loaf the dough needs to be stretched quite a lot, depending on the kind of flour, the hydration, etc.
From your descriptions I'm not sure if these loaves have been slumping right after shaping or during proofing. If that's what's been going on, then work on stretching and folding, or proof and bake them in a loaf pan until you get the methods working.
And yes, try another route if this one isn't working.
TomP
Thanks for the tip! I think the dough started slumping right during bulk fermentation. It grew a bit (not doubled) but it also looked very relaxed and flat and not very sticky. There were no visible bubbles.
After bulk fermentation (~4hrs at ~70 degrees) I shaped two boules making sure there was enough surface tension and let it proof for a couple more hours (also at 70 degrees). The boules turned into flat saucers. And the surface of the boules looked pretty dry (even though I had covered them).
Next time I'll try stretch and fold to see if I can get the dough to be stronger and maybe a bit more hydration (I think BBA's sourdough is maybe 60% hydration, in French fashion).
One more question: what's the best time to get a piece of starter to make the levain? Shortly after feeding? Should I wait for it to double? This is not covered in BBA (or not clearly so) and I haven't found the answer on YT.
what's the best time to get a piece of starter to make the levain? Shortly after feeding? Should I wait for it to double?
"Best" is always a tricky question, because rising ability and flavor are prone to ask for different schedules. You want good rising ability, so the starter needs to have time to build as much yeast as it can. It's hard to know for us who work at home, but at a minimum the starter needs to be rising vigorously. Probably by the time it stops rising it will have grown all the yeast it's going to.
In your case you seem to be persistently getting slack doughs. We don't know the reason for it yet, but when a starter gets too old it will tend to weaken the gluten network of the dough. I doubt you have been getting anywhere near that point, but to be on the safe side it would probably be wise not to let the starter get too old.
So I suggest letting the starter get rising well after refresh, and using it when it's getting close to its peak volume. With my own starter, this would be something like 4 - 5 hours after refresh, at a room temperature of around 72 - 75 deg F. If that state happens at an inconvenient time, refrigerate the starter and you can use it the next day or two.
Next time I'll try stretch and fold to see if I can get the dough to be stronger and maybe a bit more hydration
More water will result in a slacker, stickier dough. Since a slack, sticky dough seems to be your problem, I don't recommend increasing the hydration unless it's so low that you are having trouble hydrating all the flour.
Thanks for the tip! I think the dough started slumping right during bulk fermentation
Here's what usually happens during bulk fermentation. Once the dough is well mixed and has been stretched or kneaded, as it sits around it will loose some of its elasticity and become easier to stretch out. But early in the process it won't be able to stretch very far before tearing because the gluten network hasn't developed enough yet. Time will let it develop, and so will manipulating the dough (stretches, etc.). Each time that you stretch the dough, it will become more elastic and less likely to tear. After each stretch, the dough will start to lose some of that elasticity and become more extensible as time passes. It will tend to slowly flatten out in the bulk fermentation container. A very strong, elastic dough may not flatten all the way by the time you want to shape the loaf.
It's not certain, at least not for me, but once the dough get into rising and developing bubbles, it may be best not to stretch it any more until it's time to shape. I wouldn't insist on that as a hard and fast rule, though. It depends on the dough.
When you read about making a preform and resting it before final shaping, the idea is to develop elasticity and stiffness by making the preform. But then it's too stiff and elastic to final shape easily. The rest lets the preform relax and become amenable to final shaping. But if your dough is quite relaxed and never stiffens up very much, then there's no point in making a perform. It's already relaxed, maybe too much. Go right for the final shaping. As you shape the loaf, stretch out the dough as much as you can to try to develop some more elasticity to help the loaf hold its shape during proofing.
One thing that works for me is that, if my "final" shape - I'm talking about batardes and other longish shapes here - still does not have enough strength to hold its shape well, is to roll up the loaf from one end to another. This will make a short stubby cylinder, which you may be able to coax into a slightly longer shape. This stubby cylinder should feel pretty stiff and able to hold its form better than what you had before. Don't worry: the loaf will get somewhat longer as it proofs.
Sorry to be so long-winded. It's one of those things that if we could go through it together in person it would all be clear, but it's hard to explain on paper.
TomP
I decided to change pace completely and used Claire Saffitz’s sourdough recipe found on YouTube. The result has been amazing! I don’t seem to be able to upload a picture from my phone, I’ll try that later. But in short, she goes straight from starter to dough, unlike Reinhart, and she folds the dough every hour during bulk fermentation. She also shapes the dough by folding it and rolling it (Reinhart is pretty vague on this step). Finally, she uses a Dutch oven (Reinhart uses his “hearth” oven with steam). I am very happy with this, highly recommended!