Stumped!
Help! I've been baking sourdough for over 30 years and have had very good success. A little over a year ago I moved from the SF Bay Area to the Seattle area and can't get my starters going well at all.
In Oakland I used water straight from the tap, Flour was mostly Grain Craft Power and used a proofing chamber at about 79F and building the starter with 1:1:1 ratio. Tried the same here in Seattle and it's a complete dud. Symptoms are very weak fermentation. Good LAB, but starter barely doubles after 20 hours.
My first thought was the water - so I tried boiling, using filtered tap water, purified water, purified with minerals but it did not change a thing. Tried homemade starters with various flours, starters given to me from other folks, different feeding ratios, temps, flour combinations - again nothing changed.
I've been working on this for months, changing one thing at a time and expecting the results to change but nope. Ready to call in an exorcist but thought I check here first. I'm completely stumped. Any ideas?
An exorcist I'm not - but i will say thicken it up - let it thin out - repeat a few times or more - then use. Hope that helps. Enjoy!
If I'm understanding the problem correctly, you're getting good acid production and some gas production, but not enough gas production. If that's the case, you'll want to stimulate yeast growth over bacterial growth. One way to do that is to reduce the hydration of your starter. My recommendation would be to try one feed at 1:1:0.7 (starter:flour:water) to get an overall hydration of 80%, then continue to feed at 1:1:0.8. Give it several cycles to see if you get better gas production and then adjust as necessary.
By your description I am inferring that:
1. You are using the same flour and feeding schedule as you used in Oaktown; and
2. You are evaluating the LAB by either the aroma or the taste of your starter (or maybe both) and you are satisfied that it is acidic, and therefore has fermented.
My question for you is whether you have checked the starter earlier than the 20 hours that you expect it to take? If your starter is or was really active then 20 hours seems (at least from my experience) to be a very long time to double, and if this is true, you may be missing the peak if you do not check it sooner. Overfermented starter could also seem watery and thin.
Just a thought.
-Brad
If your starter is or was really active then 20 hours seems (at least from my experience) to be a very long time to double
Don't forget, this is a starter the OP is very familiar with. If he says it's working very differently then I expect it really is. If it doesn't seem to be rising before 20 hours, that's sure to be a real change.
Unfortunately, I don't have anything to offer, except that the OP try creating a new starter on the theory that something happened during the move that has drastically changed the old starter.
TomP
First of all, thanks to all that have replied, it's really appreciated.
phaz and fredsbread are both suggesting to lower the hydration. Honestly, this is one thing I haven't tried or even considered so thanks, I will try that as soon as the current build is ripe. For the past 5 years I've been using the "No Muss no Fuss" technique which results in a starter of about 65%, but the initial phase requires that you get a 2x volume in 4 hours with 100% hydration and I haven't been close to getting there yet.
To clarify breadforfun's questions
1) Yes, same flour and feeding schedule but I'm also running parallel tests of other flours and schedules and seeing little difference between any of them
2) Yes, I am evaluating LAB by aroma and taste of starter as well as flavor in the loaves (yes I can bake with this but proofing takes too long and crumb is too dense, but flavor is good)
Flavor of starter seems to be mostly lactic with very little acetic acid. pH at 4 hours is around 4.02 and 3.84 at 12 hours. I've watched and even time-lapse recorded and seems it's in the growth phase for 20+ hours, but could be over fermenting. I could be wrong but feel the acid is breaking down the protein before any volume is achieved. It is very thin by 20 hours when it has reached max volume which is often less than 2x.
tpassin I probably wasn't clear but these are new starters I am working with in WA. I'm kicking myself for not bringing my 5YO starter from Oaktown with me but assumed it would be easy to get a new starter going. Of the new starters, two were given to me by folks I've met here, and one I started myself. The one I started myself looked promising. 50/50 whole wheat and bread flour at 100% hydration. I got activity within 48 hours and 2 days after that it was crawling out of the jar. Then after a few regular feedings with the same flour it totally wimped out.
So I will try lowering the hydration with tonight's feeding and report back tomorrow. Thanks again.
It could be the acid as you suggest, and it could also be protease activity breaking down the gluten. I typically use my levain at pH around 4.2-4.3, which it reaches in 5 hours when fed at roughly 1:6:6. I use 30% whole grain flour, which helps to buffer the pH somewhat. An “old” starter will likely have more protease and using 1:1:1 ratio will have significantly more carry over than 1:6:6.
It sounds like you are not averse to experimenting, so you might want to play with your ratios as well, if only to see what effects it has on your final loaves.
Good luck.
-Brad
[Edited] A thought on using volume as an indicator for fermentation. As others have noted, hydration plays a huge part in this. A low hydration starter, say 55%, will not rise as much as a 100% hydration one. Hamelman uses 125% and there is only a small rise, however, activity can be seen as frothiness at the surface. There are too many variables affecting the amount of rise that I have found it shouldn’t be relied upon as the sole indicator. That’s just my opinion, your mileage may vary.
Thanks Brad, caught your post last night so made a 1:5:5 starter as well as a lower hydration one. Used the same flour mix I've been using for the past few weeks of 70% bread / 30% rye. 12 hours in and not much activity but will go through several cycles before deciding. I've always used volume as a primary indicator because it always worked but might have to change things up. Including a photo of the starter from a few days ago for reference. This is at 12 hours and it continues rising till about 20 hours.
I don't mind experimenting but running out of ideas for discard - only so many crumpets I can eat :)
12 hour starter - 2.jpg
I didn’t realize that you had 30% rye in your starter. I had assumed you were using a 100% wheat starter (my bad).
The rye maybe affecting the volume that you’re seeing in your starter. Rye has no gluten, and it also ferments much more quickly than wheat. The doubling of volume is usually applied to wheat starters and not to rye. My every day starter uses only 5% whole rye and 25% whole wheat added to my white wheat flour. I also keep a 100% rye starter in the refrigerator for some of my breads. Both starters are generally ready in the five hour period that I mentioned.
As for discard starter, I have just rediscovered a simple and tasty cracker recipe, though I have modified it slightly by adding a small amount of baking soda to improve the crispness.
-Brad
I've only recently started using rye after having failures with my other mix. In the past most of the time I used 100% high protein bread flour and had very active ferments. I can see why that much rye could prevent volume increase, but would still expect more bubbles, no? Image below is starters I fed last night so they have almost 15 hours @ 73F.
Thanks for the cracker recipe - I've been using the KA recipe and me and my wife love those but this looks easier. I'll give it a try.
15 hours.jpg
If the density of bubbles when viewed from the side of the jar is similar to your photo above, then I’d say that looks ok. Sorry I can’t be more certain, I really don’t know what the effect of the pentosans from the rye would be in trapping the bubbles and not allowing them to rise to the surface, but they may play a part.
I just looked up the Grain Craft flour and since you have been baking sourdough for so long, I assume that you are using the unbleached version. You may also want to try an organic flour or something with 11-12% protein. You have had success in the past, so I’m grasping at straws here.
I have a 25% rye starter that I feed once a day and keep out on the counter. The remaining 75% is all-purpose flour. It rises well after a refresh, usually about double.
TomP
I guess it has been a long time! Nothing unusual - continue and you'll have a starter in a couple. Enjoy!
Tipped in favour of LAB (for whatever reason) do you think it would be a good idea to make a fruit yeast water, which is mainly yeast, and then combine them?
I'm not ready to go that route yet but maybe in the future.
However, I'm happy to report that things have improved. The 80% hydration seems to have helped at the first refresh and even more by the second. This is the first real improvement I've seen in a month. It's still taking almost 12 hours to double but that's much better than before. I also tried a 1:5:5 feeding but that really did not take off well at that first feeding. Hopefully it will in the near future as that's the ratio I use to make dough.
I'll reply back with more updates soon.
I know you have a lot of experience with sourdough but I have to ask about a basic consideration that I don't see specifically addressed and that is ambient temp. Is the ambient temp in your new location cooler than your former kitchen? Has the season changed so cooler temps prevail? Have you done anything regarding temperature when you are working with your new starter?
When you are trying to increase the yeast population, feeding ratios are important but the ambient temp can play a significant role. If I remember correctly, around 82F is optimal for yeast and a bit higher for lacto. A basic question that is easily overlooked.
I'm under the impression after reading the thread that these are actually new starters-not made with an inoculation from your previous starter. Is that correct? In my experience, it takes a new starter a while to find its balance as all the players move into the new neighborhood. Somehow, an older culture performs more like a well-oiled machine and newer starters seem to struggle a bit.
Happy baking!
Hi, sorry just seeing this now. I'm not getting new post notifications for some reason.
I use a temp controlled proofing chamber for the starters set at the same temp that I have always used but have also experimented with other temps with little to no difference. I have also verified the temps with calibrated thermometers.
Yeah, these are new starters as I didn't take my California starter with us. I'll keep feeding on a regular basis and hope it improves. Thanks,
It's been a while since I posted so I thought I would do a quick update. I have tried 4 or 5 attempts at a homemade starter all with similar results. They initially start out quickly but after a few more days of feeding, they sizzle out and have poor fermentation qualities. I've kept them going for a few months using various flours, ratios, temps, etc. but they never improve. I have since given up and got some Carl Griffith starter, which I have used in the past, and haven't looked back. It's happy with any flour, at any temp, any water and has great flavor. I've also been able to go back to the No Muss No Fuss Starter maintenance method and it's working great. Happy baking!
"Sometimes we win and sometimes we lose." So glad you figured out a good plan and also very glad you posted back.
. I have some of the original Sourdough Jack starter they used to sell in SF back in the 60's. That culture just keeps on going and going even after I revived it from an original, sealed rancid jar of it 12 yrs ago. Your Carl starter will serve you well,I'm sure.
When I lived out west, much higher altitude it contributed to everything as did the lack of humidity, first time I made bread out there it filled the oven. Coming back east, all my ferments act differently, especially if I watch the barometric pressure rise and fall, and the 100% humidity in the summer, its more of a constant juggling act. I am glad you got going with Carl.