less s&f for long proofs?
Hi
My current method is to make a dough with about 50g of starter in 500g flour at 78% hydration, (autolysed for a couple of hours first) and then do 3 rounds of stretch and fold every 30 mins then leave until its risen 75%. Takes about 6 hours and then i proof in the fridge over night.
Ive noticed that if i bake first thing in the morning (so about 10 hours in the fridge on the coldest shelf which is about 0.5 degrees c) i get a good spring (hit the lid of the Lodge pot!) but the crumb isnt as open as I like. I tried pushing the proof until it had been in the fridge for 15 hours and the dough surface was just starting to show signs of some lumps and bumps forming. This gave a more open crumb but the spring wasnt as good and didnt get much of an ear.
If gluten keeps developing the whole time, does this mean for longer over night fridge proofs, you should reduce the stretch and folds to allow for the fact that gluten will continue to develop int he fridge?
i'm just wondering if im getting the gluten developed before the yeasts have had chance to do their thing, and by the time they have got the dough all airy, the gluten is past its peak and starting to break down.
EDIT: My flour is very strong Canadian bread flout at 15g protein and i throw in maybe 30g of whole wheat
thanks
I don't have the answer here, but a few suggestions. The simplest is to put the dough into the refrigerator a little sooner.
Also, I have noticed that the longer that bulk fermentation takes, the more extensible the dough becomes. I don't know if this is what's going on for you, but it would be normal. I try to compensate for this by stretching during preform and shaping, but with a dutch oven bake you wouldn't be doing that.
If your dough is actually degrading, it might be from protein attack (as you suggest), in which case a little more salt might help. But it might be from starch attack by amylase. In rye breads, a very acidic starter is sometimes used to reduce amylase activity, or adding something acidic like buttermilk (according to Ginsberg's book The Rye Baker). If that's going on, it might help to add some acid in some way.
Or your flour may include barley flour to provide more activity (many commercial AP and bread flours do), and a change to a flour with less or none might be better for long bulk fermentations. Or if your formula includes some rye or ww, reducing their amounts might be helpful.
thanks tpassin. ive tried putting in the fridge after about 50% rise before but it seemed a little under done. I suppose i could put in on the middle shelf of the fridge then which is about 4 degrees c and this may encourage a bit more activity to compensate for shorter bulk. Ive seen people recommend 100% rise before putting in the fridge but this just seems to guarantee over proofing, even on the coldest shelf.
Interesting point on the salt, hadnt thought of that, will give that a try on my next go.
My other worry, as im using such strong flour (15g protein) is that i hadnt done enough s&f. my main learning from sourdough mistakes is its always too much....or not enough!
Since I frequently do a 10 - 12 hour bulk ferment at room temperature, I don't get picky about how long a cold retarded bulk goes for. For me it's usually "long enough". Once the dough cools down, say about an hour, any remaining chemical activity goes on very slowly. The longer it stays chilled, the less critical is the exact duration.
Are you sure that the differences you reported are not simply sample-to-sample variation? Are your results so consistent that you can rule that out?
TomP
yeah its been a few bakes, i always seem to have to make the trade off between great spring and ok crumb, or really nice crumb but less rise.
im just always amazed when I see loaves online with a great ear and still seem to have that big holey interior.
Its not a huge issue at all really, just more of a curiosity as to how I never seem to be balance the two
seems your flour is too strong. Might want to try all purpose flour instead, or my favorite, dilute the gluten with some gluten free flour for more interesting flavor (such as rice flour or bean flour)
thanks, im certainly starting to think i'm not developing the gluten enough with this flour, especially having read this recipe - https://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/41616/weekend-roundup-and-one-simple-formula which uses lower protein flour but works the dough much more than I do. im going to try doing more s&f's rather than less and see where that gets me