March 12, 2021 - 1:55pm
Temperatures
Sourdough recipes from various sources - as long as they're by weight not volume.
Challenger cast iron pan. Electric oven from the 1980s!
Two questions, if I may, please… I'm tending to get slight over-browning:
- can I, should I stop baking regardless of what the recipe says when my Thermapen shows above 190°F in two or three places?
- is the bottom of an electric oven (mine does run 50°F slow - so I'm adjusting for that… check regularly with a reliable thermometer) generally hotter/cooler/the same as the middle etc?
Could it be that the Challenger is just so good that it bakes more quickly?
TIA!
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The problem I've always had with electric ovens is that the bottoms of things turn out too dark due to the proximity to the bake element.
Thanks, doughhooker. Yes, there are two (widely-spaced) heating elements right under my Challenger.
I've always preferred gas. But have no choice for the moment.
So would it be a better idea to put the pan one shelf-level up?
I used to have that issue when I started baking bread almost 2 years ago in my enamel cast iron dutch oven. I found a solution when I started baking baguettes. I have a baking steel that I bake baguettes on, but they would scorch. Doc Dough on TFL came up with a suggestion to stuff my roasting rack with crumpled aluminum foil and place the baking steel on that. This helped shield the bottoms of the baguettes very well. Since then I decided to just keep that set up on the bottom rack of my electric oven and now place my dutch oven directly on the baking steel which is on the roasting rack stuffed with crumpled aluminum foil. I no longer have issues with scorching the bottoms of my hearth loaves now either.
Benny
Is this the baking steel you have, Benito - or something similar?
I do have a pizza baking stone.
Would one way to use it to be to put that on the lowest rack as a… 'shield' with the Challenger pan on the next rack up?
Yes that would definitely help insulate the bottom of the Challenger pan and help reduce the burning. Another thing you can do which I’ve also been doing lately, is once the cover is off the dutch oven, I’ll bake lid off for another 10 mins then remove the bread from the dutch oven and complete the bake directly on the rack above the baking steel.
Benny
Benny - thanks; I'll try that.
I suspect the 'browning' (I never let it get to the actual burnt stage) is due to the extreme efficiency of the Challenger.
And that's without preheating for 60 minutes, which they recommend.
That's what prompts my other question: how safe is it actually to disregard the recipe's timings and remove the loaf completely as baked anyway once my thermometer probe consistently shows 190°F and above?!
Mark, there are many that suggest that using a thermometer to gauge doneness of a loaf is not as accurate as tapping the bottom to see if it is hard. I am in that camp for any leavened bread , so I wouldn't rely on 190. As to the browning, I have tried the crumpled aluminum foil, and it has worked for me, For you, I would think you could work out preheat times for the Challenger that would avoid charring, but give you a well baked loaf - just experiment a bit and keep notes.
Thanks, Barry!
Really helpful.
Presumably the crumpling refracts, splits up and otherwise disperses radiant heat?
Does a pan (like the Challenger) heat at the bottom first - and in a more 'concentrated' manner - in such a way that, even if I made reducing times a starting point, I'd still run the risk of browning?
Challenger themselves suggest a sheet of parchment paper…
Mark, not sure I understand exactly how the crumpled aluminum works, but what you suggest sounds reasonable. As to bottom browning, there should definitely be a temperature at which you preheat where the bread comes out fine, and the bottom is not too dark. It may help to go over heat transfer.
I am not an expert in heat transfer, but in general, there are 3 modes that we deal with in baking. When we heat air and place the dough it heated air, that cooks the bread, though it is very inefficient at transferring heat. This is called convection - but it applies to most ovens, even ovens without a convection mode. If instead, you put a cast iron pan on a gas burner, and put food touching the cast iron, that is heating by conduction, and is far more efficient at transferring heat ( don't try this - but if you heated an oven to 400 and a cast iron pan to 400, if you touched your hand to the pan for a second or two, you would burn you hand, on the other hand, you could probably put a bare hand in the 400 degree air for a lot longer without burning). The final method is radiant - and that is where the heat radiates off an object and gets absorbed by the loaf, and the closer the dough is the heat source - the more efficient the transfer of heat. In the Challenger, the bottom of the loaf is being heated by conduction ( very fast ) and the top is heated by both convection - the warm air in the Challenger - and radiation - the hot surface of the top of the Challenger pan - how much is contributed by radiation depends on how close the top of the loaf is to the top of the Challenger pan.
When I use a combo cooker, I don't preheat in the oven, instead, I take the bottom and put it on a gas burner on my range, and preheat it till it is around 400 ( using an IR thermometer ) which only takes a few minutes. I don't preheat the top because I don't want the top of the loaf to harden too quickly. I then put in the loaf, and it cooks fine. Again, you will want to experiment to see what works with your particular recipe, and your oven, and the size of loaf to get it to come out right. Fortunately, there is a fairly big window of acceptable - and you may also experiment with the oven temp and how long you leave it uncovered. Many here like a dark loaf - which would look to some like burned on top, though it gives a much deeper flavor, others prefer a more blond top.
Thanks again, Barry!
Takes me back to junior physics at school 50 years ago :-)
I suspected that it was conduction (direct contact) at the bottom working more quickly than either of the other two ways.
So it's all about balance, isn't it.
Then - as you say - it has to be possible to strike a happy medium of heating conduction methods, time and temperatures, otherwise (such) baking would fail consistently.
(I am, BTW, 95% very happy with my results so far.)
I have come to love a deeply golden (-brown) crust, with blisters. And so far I haven't actually burned a bottom.
I'm wondering, really, whether five minutes less (or more) would make a disproportionate difference: IOW would 30 minutes with Challenger lidless still cook the loaf through (hence my 190° question) yet avoid the conductive browning.
I shall write to Challenger as well to ask them whether their baking guidelines can successfully and safely be given precedence over others' (printed) recipes since these are probably not written for such an efficient pan!
Do you think that a sheet of parchment would also significantly retard over-browning?
Definitely. Parchment paper will act as an insulator, and so the bottom with not get as brown in the same time. As to lid on or off, Danny did an experiment an a loaf and found that steaming for 1/3 and no steam for 2/3 was the best for that particular bread , and I use the same approach. You could always preheat the Challenger to 350, then turn up the temp and load the loaf and see how it goes.
Great. Thanks Barry. Will do!
Challenger is out of the pre-cut (27 x 20 cm) paper, which would be ideal. If it stays that way for much longer I'll buy and cut my own.
Thanks for the steam ratios and preheating idea. Shall continue to experiment: very enjoyable!
You can also sprinkle a little corn meal under the parchment to create tiny air pockets and give you even more protection against burning/over-browning. This has worked well for me.
Happy baking!
Thanks, retbaker.
I have already begun to use brown rice flour on my banneton liners… loaf just slips out.