February 7, 2021 - 1:53am
Yeast Water = Vinegar?
I came upon a YouTube channel called Pro Home Cooks. The host has taken to fermenting food and did an episode on how to make homemade vinegar. His most successful recipe was done using raisins.
The process is identical to how yeast water is made. He explains that the process turns the liquid first into alcohol and finally into vinegar.
If this is true, how can bread be levained with some sort of alcohol or vinegar? Or, is this just a way of injecting gas into a dough while also getting a different flavor profile?
But then, at some point, after maintaining a yeast water, wouldn't you just have a jar of vinegar with raisins floating around in it at various stages of fermentation?
Murph
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There are a lot of similarities. However yeast water is usually made in a few days, and either used up, or stored in the fridge, without extra oxygen, which is required for alcohol -> acetic acid reaction.
Otherwise, indeed, if you keep stirring and keep it outside, it'll accumulate alcohol and will turn into vinegar.
Basically, yeast water is the first stage of vinegar fermentation cut short - at the highest yeast concentration.
I should check up on my yeast water that's been in the fridge for a few months though!
I would guess it's analogous to making sauerkraut (although that's anaerobic and growing LAB's vs AAB's). In the first couple weeks, one type of LAB is growing and consuming all the simple sugars. As time progresses, other LAB strains start to take over and sugars are depleted further. You can stop the fermentation by putting it in the refrigerator anywhere from 2-6 weeks after fermentation starts and depending on how sour you want it to taste.
"I should check up on my yeast water that's been in the fridge for a few months though!"
Might be a good idea. :) Hey! Let us know what you have! It should be vinegar after about 45 days...
Murph
That's fermenting the yeast water that leavens the bread. So the process may be similar but in bread baking one is harvesting the yeast and in the other examples it's the alcohol or vinegar that's the end product. Yeast plays the major role in both cases but in the case if bread baking yeast is wanted and alcohol is the by-product. And when making alcohol the yeast, after it's done its job, is often dead or not strong enough to leaven a dough once the final product is made. Depends at what stage of the process. If one collects the yeast during the alcohol making process, while it's still fermenting, then that can leaven bread. Yeast water is a crude alcohol with yeast still live.
Hi, Abe!
I wonder if it's the same with any fermented food like, say, kombucha.
The host of the channel I referenced above ferments a whole bunch of stuff. I haven't watched any of the other episodes but I do subscribe because he and his brother used to do a lot of easy cooking.
The vinegar looked interesting so I watched it. When I came to the raisins part, my mind raced to yeast water.
What about fermenting beer? Will that levain bread, I wonder?
Murph
Certainly, beer and bread yeast are the same species, and brewing and baking have gone hand in hand for millenia. Beer is basically liquid bread, and fizz comes from the same fermentation as what produces gas in baking.
Beer barm in particular has been used as a source of non-sourdough leavening for centuries. E.g. check this out: https://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/45960/real-barm-bread
Not as trivial? How do you mean?
I guess what I'm wondering is if there's really anything magical about yeast water that couldn't be achieved with any other fermenting food. And... to take it a step further, don't they all rot to make vinegar or kombucha or beer or whatever....
Murph
When using these fermented 'foods' to leaven a dough it's not the food itself but the live yeasts we're harvesting. There's nothing about yeast water that makes it any more 'magical' then adding in the froth of a live beer that's fermenting. One can use kefir to leaven bread too as that uses a symbiosis of yeast and bacteria very similar to a sourdough starter to ferment milk and it's live. All one is doing is adding yeast to the dough in its various forms. Be it sourdough starter, commercial yeast, yeast water, kefir etc.
"All one is doing is adding yeast to the dough in its various forms. Be it sourdough starter, commercial yeast, yeast water, kefir etc."
Yes, YES! Yep.. that's pretty much what I was getting at. If it's "rotting" (fermenting), it starts pretty much with yeast.
Hey, somebody (was it you or maybe Ilya) posted a couple of neat links to somebody who was using water from something that actually didn't work.
Now I remember that you had some helpful tips there.....
That experiment actually didn't work. I forget what they were using and I don't want to look back for fear of losing what I've typed so far... but are there different yeasts that don't work? I'm starting to think so.
And if that is the case, it seems that raisin yeast water is the way to go. As long as it is maintained correctly and doesn't go to vinegar.
Is it all actually worthwhile?
Murph
Quite the opposite. Fermenting is preserving. And I think the example of what didn't produce good results was kombucha. But that could be for a myriad of reasons.
Raisin yeast water is just a crude form of alcohol with active yeasts. As long as they're live it'll work. That's why it's kept in the fridge. Vinegar has active culture in it but that's bacterial. As long as yeast water is kept in the fridge once mature it'll last a long time, it can be refreshed and maintained indefinitely like a sourdough starter.
Fermemtimg is preserving. Never thought of it that way. Hmph.
Yeah, I got the impression that there were a myriad of reasons going on in that post. I think the original poster was onto something but I'm not sure they polished it up.
Thank you for your help in clearing up my confusion. I made YW back when dabrownman was active. Baked with it, too. I under-proofed almost everything I did back then but it was fun.
I've been meaning to start up a batch of YW again. I even bought the requisite raisins. Then I saw that video... :)
Anyway... thanks again, Abe. Always to the rescue!
Murph
Is fun and makes lovely tasty bread. That was then and this is now. Time to give it another whirl Murph.
Enjoy.
Kombucha is similar, but different, and I found this thread suggesting it's at least not as trivial as with beer barm: https://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/60525/why-did-my-kombucha-bread-fail
Hi Murph i have actually made vinegar and its a whole different kettle of fish perhaps i will change my terminology i don't want to create more confusion.
Vinegar is produced using alcohol ideally at around 6% proof . bottle conditioned ales and stouts are around that 6%, If you have any leftover wine (no such thing in our house) which is around 12 -15% proof you need to add water to bring it to that level then you need to add the culture which can be as simple getting some raw vinegar or one that says it has the 'mother" and not one that has been pasteurised. if you look at the bottles on the shelf at the supermarket you will discern a cloudy sediment in the base.
Braggs apple cider vinegar is a good one for innoculating your chosen alcohol, during the process of the secondary fermentation of the alcohol and the work of the acetobacter bacteria converts that into acetic acid = vinegar. During this process a cellulose disc forms this is the mother than can be used to start further batches. It quite a fascinating subject and i have a very good book VINEGAR REVIVAL by Harry Rosenbaum Artisanal Recipes for Brightning Dishes and Drinks with Homemade Vinegars
KR Derek