November 18, 2020 - 5:04am
An observation about starters
Made a starter with 50g yeast water + 50g whole rye flour. When it bubbled up and peaked I then stirred it back down, completely degassing, after which it bubbled up much stronger and peaked higher!
Well first things first... A starter has a lot more life left in it after peaking. Not only that but it seems to be stronger and has the ability to rise more. I'm wondering how one might use this info in a rye bread. Whether this translates into starters using other flours I'll need to experiment but as for rye this shows promising and interesting results.
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Do you mean the idea is to stir the starter before mixing the bread dough, and let it peak again?
I'm still working on it Ilya and while that is a good idea I'm thinking along the lines of how we use this info for the final dough itself. What happens within a starter can translate to what is happening in a dough especially for rye where often the dough is like one big starter. Can one extend the bulk ferment of the final dough to peaking then de-gas and final proof for a better loaf rather than following a more modest quicker bulk ferment?
For instance many rye recipes say bulk ferment till noticeably risen or 1.5x or just until a few bubbles show in top. Why not treat it like the starter, get more flavour out of it and get a stronger second rise?
Right, that was my other thought what you meant. Interesting!
I feel like large, often multi-stage preferments, which are common in rye recipes, would achieve a similar result, what do you think?
And I am also never sure with rye recipes: when shaping, is it better to degas the dough, or be as gentle as possible and try to preserve the bubbles? I guess degassing will align with your suggestion.
Would the starter/dough rise as much if you include salt?
Why not ferment the scald more? Build the starter and scald the flour through the day. Then add the starter to the scald for an all night ferment. And because the main part of the dough is done and the scald has fermented to a greater degree then why not just add the rest of the ingredients and shape into the loaf pan? Rather then a more modest scald and final dough ferment. There is no salt in the scald and there's no need to preserve the bubbles as it's not like a gluten dough. Get a better rise and crumb through fermenting more then degassing for a stronger and better second rise.
C my long post.
First things first - your starter doesn't necessarily have more life - it just has more food to supply the life that's already there. You stir and move around the food and the life and things continue. Around the point where there's no longer activity (a rise), one of 2 thing happened
1 - the bugs are dead
2 - there's no longer anything to consume
We know the life in a starter is hard to kill, so 1 is not likely. That leaves 2.
Apply to other flours - think about that - the fundamental processes are the same regardless of the food - so what about bleached white for example?
Same thing (I know from experience). And if ya really want to play with something I'll tell ya this - same thing happens with a dough - oh yeah. Also from experience.
I've posted about my method of maintaining a starter, which uses stirring to increase strength, a few times with a few others. The basic theory is - adjusting food to allow a little rise (no more, no less) in a certain period of time.
No rise at the end of the time period = not enough food. Big rise = to much food.
To little creates an acidic starter (to acidic over time).
Țo much creates a weak starter over time.
I think I went into this in a little more detail with a firstashley who was having trouble with a starter - try to find it and check it out. Enjoy!
PS - this really gets interesting when applied to the dough. Post results - I know you're gonna play around with it!
I was certainly impressed by how much stronger it was and how much more it rose. Coming from an observation point of view it performed better in the second rise. As to why that is another question and thank you for your reasoning.
I'm also of the opinion, and perhaps this is connected, we seem to allow sourdoughs to bulk ferment more modestly whereas I have had better success all round by going back to the old fashioned way. See my recipe here.
Taking the Borodinsky bread where we have 3 stages, starter and scald, starter + scald and final dough I'm thinking that instead of a more modest rise in the 2nd and 3rd stage perhaps increase the rise in the second starter + scald (which form the bulk of the recipe anyway) then add the final ingredients, shape and final proof.
I did see something about the stirring method to strengthen a starter and now I've stumbled across it myself I'm intrigued.
Certainly I am. This is the start of some experimentation.
P.s. it's funny as I've been using sourdough starter for years! I've always just allowed it to become active, peak then use. I've even used straight from the fridge. I never thought of stirring it back down. It just so happened I tried it the other day and was impressed by how it reacts. Always some fresh perspective to learn from. Of course when making one (I saw your other post just now) I've used stirring as a way to encourage a starter to mature but stopped applying that once the starter was made.
Sorry Abe but I don't really follow recipes from others. Not that I'm against the idea of a recipe, but I know enough to know following 1 isn't the best idea. They are good as an idea as to different ingredients, but that's about it.
Starter better 2nd time - yup - that's expected - your getting a higher % of bugs in relation to the entire mass so it should be stronger (c below).
Your observation on the rise during "fermentation" - that's the "rule" - isn't it. Why would ya question it? The same is true with the starter (your last paragraph). It rises, there must be bugs. Now the question - for the given mass, is there a high % of bugs, or a low %. That's considered strength (not so much how high it rises) but what's the %. Without costly and time consuming lab testing, we have no idea. But we can maximize that %, and we do that by letting the bugs do their thing till they can't anymore. When they can't, there's no food left, so we get the max (not really but at least) a high %. That point is when a certain feed allows a little rise in a certain period of time (a little rise cuz you want a little leeway for when you forget to do a feed).
I mentioned to someone that making bread is so easy, it's hard to screw up - and that's why there are so many "ways" to do it, and it still works out ok.
Back to fermented and the rise - would ya believe I let it rise to something like 300% - the first time. Then I do a quick knead - and let it rise about that much again. And - oh yeah there's more - I let it double or more when proofed. Would this work for everyone (that much growth) - I wouldn't bet on it. It works for the way I like my bread, but it does demonstrate that the "rule" is a very general one, and can be bent shall we say, sometimes a little, sometimes a lot.
Saw something about stirring for strength - probably me as most just follow the rule and I have been spreading the word, slowly. I have a habit (good or bad - up to you) of dispelling myths. The whole starter thing (from inception to maintenance) just didn't make sense to me. Didn't seem logical - and if something doesn't follow logic - well, that about says it all.
Play around (also something I recommend to all), see what happens - follow the logic. Enjoy!
Not to throw a big wad of dough around but I thought this post was about yeast water starter and rye flour.
When did the yeast water starter become sourdough? I think I'm missing a step somewhere.
Rye sourdough will behave a little differently than rye & yeast water. Stirring yeast water and rye for a second rise is obvious, the gluten like matrix was made stronger after time. Fermentation and collapse (folding) without the contribution of sourdough bacteria traped more gas the second time around. Bake it out and compare a sourdough rye to a yeast water rye bread. How acidic was that yeast water?
Sourdoughs are big starters only with a few more ingredients so they taste better when baked. :)
This was the beginning of an experiment of making a starter with yeast water and rye with the intention of keeping it going and seeing how long it took to turn into a sourdough starter. Hence the stirring back down allowing it to mature to the point of souring etc. I also, in the back of my mind, had an idea of helping people make a sourdough starter with less fuss. Yeast water, as you know, takes no maintenance at all. Soak fruit in water and wait! One can make a pre-ferment using yeast water and flour and begin baking straight away while one waits for the starter to become sourdough.
I didn't see it all the way through. After the initial mixing and subsequent stirring back down allowing to rise again the strength of the starter and aroma was so inviting I turned it into a loaf of bread. But there was my thought pattern.
Used the term starter more as a pre-ferment or levain going into the dough as a leavener as supposed to sourdough starter.
Just a note about doing something like what you are trying to do. What I found when doing something very similar a few times ie use a yeast heavy medium to create a sd starter - in the end, you still have to wait for things to populate and balance out.
Either way you start, there's a high number of 1 bug, whichever it happens to be, ya gotta wait for the other to join the party - then balance out with the other guests.
Does it make things go quicker - eh - 6 of 1, half dozen of the other. Enjoy!
I was just thinking along the lines of the ease when making a yeast water with no maintenance then having a starter one can use (albeit the first few breads won't be sourdough but wild yeast breads nonetheless) while it does it's thing turning into a sourdough starter. Also a lot of this is curiosity and learning myself on the way. One thing though is just how would one know when the process is complete? Sure the taste might change slowly but not all sourdough breads are tangy. I suppose I should try again and measure the pH level periodically!
but then after a few loaves, maybe a few weeks of baking, they got the back of the fridge abuse and turned foul on me while I used another sourdough culture. The yeast water turning to a good sourdough culture hasnt really panned out for me in the long run. I could go look for the one in the fridge. I haven't fed it in a while. That might be its weakness, not quite buggy enough to survive my feeding schedule.
I got yeast water in there too.
Actually that's why I chose rye as I thought it might be buggy enough to help in the process. Another interesting side note was I always believe that if the fruit is still floating then it's good to use. My yeast water had been in the fridge a couple of months since the last refreshment and the raisins were still floating. However the pre-ferment I originally made took 24 hours to wake up which is a lot longer. So I did a refreshment of my yeast water then tried it again and the pre-ferment sprang into action.
I might repeat this process again soon but using pH strips to test it.