November 7, 2020 - 3:35pm
Ridding the dough of thiols - but what is what of 5:3:5?
My dough turn to batter, so better go to battle.
Found here on forum the cure beeing feeding thrice a day and keep it in the refrigerator (for some 10 days)
Now, feeding 5:3:5 does tell us the ratio but not the components. Well, starter, water and flour one can surmise, but witchoneiswhat? s:f:w? f:w:s?..
Is it removing excess starter until, say, 50g is left, add 30 g of water and another 50g but this time flour?
Thanks in advance!
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Normally, the first number in a refresh ratio is starter. Many use the next number as water, though I don't know if that is universal. I did check this post, and Debra Wink did mean starter water flour
http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/18144/sourdough-loosing-elasticity-please-help#comment-121566 but while there are 3 numbers, there are really two ratios. If we ignore the starter, the ratio of water to water tells us the ending hydration. So if you are shooting for a 60% hydration starter, it would be 30 water 50 flour. That is what Debra was doing, though if you wanted a different hydration starter, you could adjust those numbers.
The second ratio is the starter to flour. That lets us know how much food the starter has , which in turn will let you know, assuming all other factors are equal, how long it will take for the starter to exhaust its food supply. So a 1 : 1 :1, the starter will exhaust its food supply much quicker than a 1:3:3 refresh.
We use ratios so you can adjust to your needs. I typically keep a small amount of starter in the fridge, and when I refresh, I may go with 5 grams starter, 10 grams water, 10 grams flour. Basically that means I will end up with a 100% hydration starter ( since the water amounts and the flour amounts are equal ) and because the flour amount is twice the starter amount, the starter will last longer before it runs out of food than a 1 : 1:1.
Yes, you want to remove the excess starter - otherwise, you would quickly fill a pool with starter. What is excess is up to you, but I don't see any problem with discarding all but 50 grams.
Very thorough and well written answer, really appreciated. You are a role model.
If thiols are the problem, take s very small amount of starter and feed something like 30 to 1 - ie 1 part starter to 30 parts food (this includes water at your normal hydration %. That would be 1/30/ 30 (1 part starter, 30 water, 30 flour for 100% hydration).
Stir this vigorously a couple times a day till it returns to normal growth. Consider this the standard procedure for wonky starters. Oh - it may take a little while to get back to normal, like a week. Enjoy!
Appreciate your answer phaz. Will try both your's and the '5:3:5', 3/day, in fridge a week+' solutions and see what works.
Just want to check so I got it right:
1:30:30, 'whip' it to get air into the mix (I guess) morning-evening (~12h shift). Do this over a week+, until it 'smells like it should'. All this in room temperature (~68f/20c)
I guess that it is back to normal when it smells 'smooth' and is just tart in that 'fermentation way'? (ie normal to me) Now it tastes more tangy, strong, and it goes there fast.
Push to shove I bring in a new batch from Sweden when I go home over the holidays: green apples, stone fruit, heaven =) But I will def put my back into this battle first. Having that victory as an experience I could also help others. 'Cause the gods knows: there is not much to find on this issue out there on the interwebz, as far as I can see.
Will let you know the outcome in the end. Thx already.
You can whip it if you like, I like to say stir with authority, you're just moving food around in order to make it readily available.
I was thinking about asking why you think it's thiol, it can be other things, but this method tends to be a fix for many issues related to a starter in a state of imbalance. Consider it standard procedure.
When is it back to normal? Once it reacts like it used to - ie. rise, test it. This can be a very pesky problem. Do take note of consistency though, if it's getting thin (soupy) I'd go to a 122 daily feed routine (always adjust water to keep a wet dough like consistency). Enjoy!
I will stir with authority, very good description now when you put it that way :)
Thing is - the starter is very potent. If I make a new starter from scratch it kicks in within 24h. After a couple of days it will slow down and then pick up momentum after a nother couple of days. After this it reaches an equilibrium. It means it is a 'normal' starter, it acts normal when making the 'levain' (you call it here in the US). I prepare the dough and then the dough just 'rips' (we call it in sweden), it just 'falls apart' sts, turns into goo.
This happens at slap and fold, or later at knead if no snf, or later at folding if no knead. The pattern is: working the gluten, it breaks - blurgh..
I have tried copious amounts of variations in the starter, bread recipes and dough work sts - same result.
Is it thiols? Sure acts like it. When I brought in my starter from Sweden it worked flawlessly for months, local water and flours, no problem. I forgot it when we went for vacation - no worries, I have started a gazillion 'sours'. Nope, not this time, no sir.
Now I tried anew when temperatures are more non-summer-swelter. My experience is that things can go soso when it is too hot.
When I make youghurt, sauer kraut, ferment what have you it all acts a little 'what I am not used to' but nothing not edible. My guess is that the place is abundant with funny bacteria and fungii. I live in DC so heat/humidity is off the charts during summer, thus the varieties and plethora is bountiful.
TL:DR It acts like thiols, I will act against it. If your recipe remedies a broad spectrum of wonky and works - I am a happy camper. Thiols or not.
The description of the starter sound like a young, immature starter - ie. One not yet in a proper balance.
And yes, as mentioned, the fix is standard procedure when things get funny. The bugs have been working things out for millions of years, we're just giving them the chance to again work it out amongst themselves. They'll figure it out, they always do. Enjoy!
Hi, sorry I was unclear. The starter has been running for a month, hoping it would 'sort it self out' over time. Feeding once a day, when activity goes down (due to acidity), remove all but ~30g and start again feeding once a day. All in room temp.
I should have pointed it out, I have initiated a couple of starters with hope it would work after 'reboot', same thing, really potent but they rip the dough.
Anyhow, I run 1:30:30 in room temperature for a week and come back, I have great hope and faith to your remedy. Thx mate!
Give any and all info you can about the starter - ingredients times, ratios - including observations and when observed. Enjoy!
Me and sourdough salubrate our 20th anniversary next fall. I make a starter with a dash or two of flour, then a splash of water. Cover it and place it in the cupboard above the fridge, cause it is a couple of degrees warmer there. I stir an add a pinch of flour and/or a splash of water every or other day. In a week or two it is up to the task.This is a SOP for sourdough bakers in Sweden.
(There are a few hipsters who are very concerned with the right flour being harvested at a blood moon and the starter MUST be stirred gently-gently 7 times counter clockwise in the hour of the wolf or a puppy and the starter dies. I digress)
Anyhow. I use what in the US is known as pumpernickel flour and have been doing that for ages, I like it. I have tried w flour from the US, and because of this trouble my wife brought me pumper flour from Sweden, unfortunately w the same results.
Now I have stirred 5g of my wonky starter into 150g water and 150g flour. 1:30:30. Actually added a dash of water as it was a tad 'stiff', it will soften in a couple of days.
I have also started a 5:3:5 - 15g starter, 9g water, 15g flour for the fridge.
That is where I am at. And where I go until sunday next.
Ah - even though I love pumpernickel that's a flour I'm not familiar with - so I may not be be all that helpful. But, the remedy given will most likely work out anyway. - the bugs can figure it out. Good luck and Enjoy!
Hmm - I have to look for that type of flour and turn out a loaf - yum!
Think coarse rye meal. You have dark rye, think of that coarse, lots of quite big bits of the 'husk' .
Make a starter/levain out of that and you have super rye+ taste and all your daily fiber needs in a slice of an all white bread (now, if that is to your fancy?)
https://www.bakersauthority.com/collections/rye-flours/products/ardent-mills-rye-meal-pumpernickel-flour
It's now on my shopping list - can't believe I've never made a pumpernickel loaf. Ingredients are simple enough, all I need is the rye. I guess it never came to mind. Glad I decided to chime in on this thread. Thank You and Enjoy!
This is what the regimen resulted in:
Day 1 - morning: double size, neutral smell, smudge tart. Night: double size, neutral smell, smidge tart.
Day 2 - morning: 1/3 bigger, little sharper smell, clear tang. Night, 10% rise, same smell sharp tang.
Day 3 - slight rise, sharp smell when opening the lid, strong tang. Night: slight rise, clear hint of nail varnish when opening the lid, strong tang.
Day 4 - no rise, clear smell of nail varnish, strong tang. Night: no rise, clear smell of nail varnish, strong tang.
Day 5 - like day 4
Day 6 - like day 4
There is the pattern. I have not disposed of the starter yet.
Though, the experiment with the 5:3:5 did not yield anything so far. No smell, no tartness, no nothing.
I have a hypothesis but I was hoping you (and others perhaps) could present some thoughts from 'the outside' first.
Cheerio!
Day 4 no rise, (I take it is been stirred regularly), varnish smell, etc - it needed food. I'd go back to whatever the normal feed routine was and try a loaf after a few days of that. My fingers are crossed! Good luck and enjoy!
Yup, I have followed instructions and stirred every day. But you see what I mean with 'potent'? 1:30:30 is substantial amounts of food and it is gone in 48h more or less. Sure, I can start over, feed it again 1:30:30, use white flour to cut back on nutrients for the bugs and start w 'normal' feeding process at first hint of 'nail varnish' and see what happens, but I have my doubts.
See, the tang is stronger and harsher than acetic vinegar. Now, otoh the 5:3:5 is in the fridge and not even a smidge tart. Starter grown in the fridge usually is more acetic than 'refreshingly' tart and what I use for black rye bread of Finnish/Russian variety. It is a matter of temperature spans that certain bugs to thrive in (all this you probably know, just being through)
So, room temp = growth galore but bad bugs. Fridge = hardly any 'life' at all. The bugs that produce thiols and make the starter taste almost bitter rather than acetic and doing that in room temperature is totally wiping out the good bugs, more or less if you ask me.
With the 5:3:5 at that turnover (thrice a day) gives certainly no chance for scarce bugs to grow, the dilution is very high. With density and growth below crit mass the bug density will dive.
I will try to start over, just when things come to life in a batch from scratch I will put it in the fridge and start normal feeding programme, but less bug food due to temperature. And use coarse 'wholerye' so more nutrients though. Wrong temp for bad bugs, lots of nutrients for the good ones - and hope for the best.
I will run a 1:30:30 w white wheat in room temp though. Have to give it another go.
Let you have my results in another few days/a week.
Cherio!
Well, the remedy mentioned was for a thiol problem, and with more info the problem may not be what you think. Too much acid will inhibit gluten development - to the point where it won't form. That is a more likely scenario. Keep it well fed, cool it to slow down consumption, and most important - pet the cat! I'm confident you'll get it worked out. Enjoy!
.. the starter turns the dough to goo with starters fed at normal routine, ergo tart/mild acidity. So the hypothesis wont hold up.
But I go for a new 1:30:30 starter seeded off the old 1:30:30 and put it in the fridge, when it has kicked off I will feed it 'normally'. Let's see what happens.
If the 'thiols wipe out all good bugs and the bad bugs grows really bad at fridge temperatures'-hypothises holds that starter will virtually slow to a stop in no time when kept in the fridge; in my experience 'healthy' starters still proliferates, just slower. If good bugs are still around and has a chance due to dilution of bad bugs at 1:30:30 things will happen though, probably, just really, really slow from the beginning.
Cherio!