Bittman claims to have an easy technique for getting good oven spring and open crumb with 100% whole wheat dough. The formulas are no-knead with folds and a starter (he doesn't like to call it sourdough, I think because the whole wheat starter isn't as sour/acid tasting as that for white flour).
An unusual aspect of his method is:
- Proofing in the pot/dutch oven that you'll bake in
- Proofing 10-20 minutes only
- Starting the bake in a cold oven; Bittman repeatedly writes "That's not a typo"
Another quirk is that the instructions for making a starter begin with pate fermantee from a white flour dough. Before the starter is ready to use, it will have had 3 feedings with 100% whole wheat flour, so it won't be more that 25% white flour for the first loaf and less and less as you go on.
The book includes recipes/directions for a lot of things I would like to make, include 100% WW empanadas and berry tortes, pizza and rolls, rye bread and baguettes. He doesn't like rye starters, preferring the WW starter and rye flour in the dough, with two levels of rye.
When I get some practice I'll post results. Please let me know what you think of the book, especially after trying it out.
https://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/69277/100-stoneground-whole-wheat-hokkaido-sourdough-milk-bread
This was very enlightening to me. Go to the last page of this post towards the end.
Louis- I think you did all of the right things. Your crumb looks fine. Your bread just lacks some oven spring. Did you use some kind of method to create steam? It does make a difference if you put it not a covered and preheated Dutch oven. Did you? If the starter did not float, maybe it wasn’t mature enough. You might also tried an overnight retard sometime. I have usually gotten good results doing that. I have gotten many a loaf shaped like yours when the formula includes a lot of whole grain. If it tastes good and does not seem too dense, I would still call it a success.
Oops I posted twice.
Hi, Im not sure how to use this board, do I "reply" or "post a new comment" I'll see where this comment ends up...
Americas Test Kitchen did an interesting study of temperature and bread doneness. They compared break baked just until the internal temp was 210, and bread baked for 15 minutes longer, when it was still 210 (boiling temperature of water being 212 it seems to stay at that temp). What they found was you can't use reaching 210 as an indicator of bread doneness. The bread that had just reached 210 was still damp and too chewy, but the bread that got the extra 15 minutes was properly cooked. So my guess is if the bread is too moist you just need to cook it longer. https://www.cooksillustrated.com/how_tos/5719-testing-bread-for-doneness.
I made another successful loaf today. But I never manage to follow the recipe. I'd left my starter in the fridge untouched for more then 2 weeks so I was a little concerned about how active it was. First I made the "Super starter" and let that sit on the counter overnight, well, about 15 hours. Then I made the "Jump starter" and let that sit 12 hours. Then I added the rest of the flour/water and let that sit in the fridge overnight, and then I followed the recipe, adding salt and folding 4 times, but usually with more than 30 minutes between folds, and baking in a cold oven. Looks and tastes great.
That looks great. You did just one feeding (what ratio?) after 2 weeks, then built the levain (effectively a 2nd feeding) and it obviously worked great.
I'm going to try a retarded proof and maybe later a retarded fermentation.
I typically preheat at 50 F hotter than the baking temp to allow for the oven door opening. Then I bake 20 min in the dutch oven + 20 minutes lid off + ~10 minutes lid off oven open a crack until appropriately brown and the internal temp is 205 F or more.
Ann, nice loaf. As to temps, from another fan of Hamelman, he is pretty clear that he does not think temperature tells you anything about when a loaf is done. IIRC, he goes by thumping the bottom.
Hamelman's "Bread:" is one volume. But there are 3 editions (that I know of). I've got a 2nd edition. Caryn has a 3rd edition which includes a workaday bread not in the 2nd edition.
The book is terrific; I love his detailed explanations/. It is targeted for commercial bakers; amateurs can just skip some of the details, like detailed flour specifications.
One annoying thing about the book is that he gives formulas for commercial quantities in both Imperial (lbs and oz and qt and fl oz) and metric units (kg for flour and water), but the home-size batches are imperial only. I typically use the commercial quantities and divide by 20 for a single loaf or 10 for a double loaf.
His technique for shaping batards is one of the less common ones.
You can see him some King Arthur videos on YouTube. Watching him shape loaves faster than your eye can follow is amazing.
I agree that Hamelman’s measurements for the home baker should be expressed in grams, but here’s what I do: I sometimes divide by 20 as you do, Louis, but lately I want a loaf a bit bigger than that and I scale the recipe for a 1kg loaf by calculating the ratio of 1 kg / total dough weight. I use a calculator and use this decimal to determine (by multiplying) all of the amounts from the metric column expressed in grams (multiplying by 1000). It only takes a few minutes to do this.
That's the beauty of Baker's Percentages. You can scale up or down easily to whatever size you like. I used to scale to 450g total flour, but some formulas seem to have a mass effect - they just work better with double loaves in the 900-1000g range.
Superstarter: added 50 g water and 50 g ww flour to the entire jar of starter (think about 150g) - 15 hours at room temp
Jumpstarter/levain: 100 g of 'superstarter' from above, 100 g water, 100 g ww flour (return remaining superstarter to fridge) - 13 hours at room temp
Final mix/autolyse: jumpstarter from above (300 g), 110 g water, 200 g ww flour. 7 g salt added next morning - 9 hours in fridge
I should add. I used a stone ground whole wheat flour my daughter brought me from a mill in Africa, so no idea kind of wheat berry. The flour has much larger flakes of bran and softer flour that most commercial ww flours.
I put together these crib notes on Bittman Bread recipe if they are helpful to anyone
I have tried the bread again and it still tastes great, but still barely rises. (Caryn and Louis, thanks for you tips). I am noticing on this discussion thread that people that use the 'Suprstarter' step seem to have better luck. As I'm not quite ready to give up, I'm going to give it a shot with the 'Superstarter' and also follow the clever cheat sheet of AnnD.
I have been following Bittman for years and cooking everything along with him with great success: no failures; always rave reviews; consistently 'sure thing', reliable crowd-pleaser recipes. But, what I am finding throughout the Internet, and as others in this discussion have noted, the WW sourdough recipe in this book is most definitely not a 'sure thing'. The problems seem to be endemic to the recipe - afflicting highly experienced sourdough bakers, those new to it, and even professionals. I am inclined to join his project bread thing-y and write him a note that if he has a sense of bakerly kindness he will do a YouTube video demystifying (proofing, haha, if you will) that this can be done reliably, consistently. What I am beginning to sense, here and elsewhere, is that the results are neither reliable nor consistent.
I am having little or ;no luck with Bittman or Hamelman. Ok, it's me, not them. So I read some more web pages, especially about bulk fermentation and proofing, and realized that many people bulk ferment 12-24 hrs (sometimes retarded in the fridge, sometimes room temp), Hamelman's basic sourdough formulas have bulk fermentation at 2-2 1/2 hrs, at DDT's like 76 F (my kitchen has been a steady 73F day and night for a while). So, I'm trying the Vermont Sourdough with WW (just 10%) and no rey except my starter. . I got my starter out of the fridge and did 3 1:10:10 feedings 12 hrs apart at room temp. The starter now increases about 2.5x, which is promising.
I mixed the levain and let it sit at room temp about 17 hrs (vs 16 max in Hamelman). Hardly any volume increase but I did get little bubbles like an overnight poolish with yeast. I mixed the dough, had it at room temp about 3 hrs with folds, and just put it in the fridge. If it isn't ready in 12 hrs I'll give it another 12. And then I'll try an overnight proof in the fridge.
Maybe my starter just doesn't have the enthusiasm for a 2 1/2 hr bulk fermentation, even though it seems pretty active
The previous loaf, Hamelman's Pain au Levain with whole wheat flour was better perhaps as a result of lots of folds, not too much water, and 30 minutes in the freezer at the end of a room temp proof, mostly to Hamelman's timings.
We'll find out in a couple of days. At least the sourdough discard pancakes - muffins - cornbread - crepes are delicious; I try crackers next.
Louis- It just so happens that I just made Hamelman’s Vermont Sourdough. I want to let you know that my starter rarely more than doubles, but still works. I am not sure if you know that the usual tests for proofing do not work when cold proofing. I think I may have learned this from The Bread Code. When proofing 12-16 hours, I just turn it over onto parchment paper from the banneton and put the dough on the parchment onto the hot pot bottom, cover it and bake in the preheated oven. I almost always get decent ovenspring this way. Also, I don’t even try to test the overnight build. I just let it ferment for 12-16 hours.
When I made this bread a few days ago, I didn’t time it properly to allow an overnight proofing, so I baked it the same day that I created the dough. This is a link to my bread: https://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/70118/my-bread-log
Currently, it is my last post on the blog.
That last loaf with AP flour (although KAF AP is as strong as some bread flour brands) with some rye as well is amazing.
I have a Vermont Sourdough with WW proofing in the fridge right now, for baking this evening. I did an overnight room temp bulk fermentation that looked and felt pretty good, more like the videos than before. Hamelman's 2 1/2 hr bulk fermentation at room temp is a mysterious as Bittman, unless his starer is on steroids. Maybe after a few months of daily feedings starters will become that active. But for once a week bakers, it looks like a 12 hr bulk fermentation.
The dough has been final proofing in the fridge 36 F for 4-5 hrs with no sign of volume increase. I don't expect any at that temp but we;ll see what it looks like in 7-8 hours. At fridge temp, there is probably not much change after 12 hrs. But if I don't get the oven spring, next time, I'll try rook temp proof for 1-2 hrs and then into the fridge.
Louis-I hope you have success with this loaf. I worry that a bulk fermentation this is so long might be too long. Remember that your bread will not necessarily double after the bulk fermentation. The 2.5 hours worked for me. If your environment is a bit cooler, you might want to add up to an hour, but I am not sure the dough could necessarily withstand two long fermentations. As to how robust and how many feedings, I mentioned in a previous post on this thread how Benny only feeds his starter about once a week and maintains a very minimal amount. I have been more or less doing this by saving the small leftover “build” from the bread that I last made. If I end up not baking in a week, I will feed the starter, let it work at room temp and then refrigerate.
I think it makes sense to trust Hamelman, certainly over Bittman, as he has spent a long career as a baker and still bakes at home. I will again add the link to Benny’s post, in case you didn’t notice it.
https://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/69277/100-stoneground-whole-wheat-hokkaido-sourdough-milk-bread
I will also paste what he wrote here:
essentially have no discard if I plan well ahead and know how much starter I’ll need each week. I try to make only enough starter so that I have only 5 g of starter left after my weekly baking. I feed my starter only once per week generally speaking. So let’s say I expect to bake twice and will need 20 g of starter in total for those two bakes and I have my projected 5 g of starter. I will give it a 1:2:2 feed so 5 g of starter, 10 g of water and 10 g of whole rye. I like to keep a 100% hydration starter and only use whole rye to feed it. My experience has been that this keeps my starter robust and consistent. I will then ferment this at 82°F until it is at peak and then refrigerate it pulling it out of the fridge only to build levains during the 7 days after feeding. Regardless of how many days ago my starter was fed, I will use whatever amount I need without refreshing/feeding my starter as long as it was fed within the past 7 days. So that is what I do on an ongoing basis and it has worked for me for quite some time now.
To get to this point where I don’t give my starter much thought, I fed my starter 1:2:2 or 1:3:3 and kept it out at room temperature or warmer for several days until it was able to rise 3-4 x for at least a few feedings. At that point I felt it was healthy and active and then converted to my weekly feedings and refrigeration.
After mixing the dough and some folds over 2-3 hrs, I put the dough in the firdge for a few hours. Then I chickened out and left it at room temp until the morning. Many of the articles I read suggested fermentations up to 12 hrs and some said you can't do a retarded bulk fermentation. This morning the dough looked, felt, and worked more like it was supposed to on any previous attempts, and the dough did have a dome in the container. And I get nowhere in 2 1/2 hrs. Maybe in 6 months with a more developed starter, or maybe white flour starters work faster than rye.
I probably should have stated proofing at room temp for 1-2 hrs before going into the fridge. We'll see how it comes out.
I have a 100% dark rye starter per "The Bread Baker". I refresh once a week at 1:10:10 per that book if I'm not baking. If I bake, I do 3 feedings 12 hrs apart. The starter reliably increases by 2.5x in 12 hrs at room temp.
I still think you can trust Hamelman. If I were you, I would follow his method exactly to see how it might work for you. So long as your starter is viable, I suggest starting with his “bulld” and timing accordingly to his directions, if you can keep your environment at a temperature that he suggests. I own a proofer where you can set a temperature, and it seems to work well.
Hamelman's Vermont Sourdough with Whole Wheat. I made 1/20 of his commercial batch:
500g flour (90% KAF bread flour and 10% KAF whole wheat); 15% prefermented in the levain, of which 20% was an all dark rye starter.
325g water (65%)
9g salt (1.9%)
1 hr autolyse (ok, fermentolyse) with the flour, water and levain before adding the salt. Then about 12 hr bulk fermentation of which about 3 was retarded in a cold fridge before I chickened out and finished at room temp, 73 F.
Then about 8 hrs proofing in the fridge.
Photos: Vermont Sourdough w/ WW & long bulk fermentation
Nothing great by TFL standards but way better than any of my sourdough breads before. Next time I would do the entire bulk ferment at room temp to a ~20% volume increase. Then I would start the proof at room temp for an hr or so before going into the fridge. The taste is a little bland; once I get the hang of oven spring I'll go beck to trying dough with rye and WW for flavor.
Your breads looks great. I do still think if you follow Hamelman and do an overnight build with your starter, bulk ferment with two fold fo 2.5 hours and either proof at room temp for 1.5 to 2 hours or retard overnight, you should get good results. My starter isn’t super strong (doesn’t do much more than double), but my breads work fine using Hamelman’s methods. I think it is worth giving it a try anyway!
Thanks for your gracious comments.
Maybe the reasons that Hamelman's 2.5 hr bulk ferment at 76 F did not work work for me are these:
Here's an interesting article from the Sourdough Journey website:
Here is a nice article on bulk fermentation from the Sourdough Journey website. His YouTube channel has terrific content, very thorough and detailed if less lively than say The Bread Code.
Sourdough Journey Bulk-O-Matic
The guidelines are based on basic Tartine bread, and are pretty close to most of the formulas in the Bread levain chapter. It's probably worth trying bulk fermentation in the oven with the light on, while watching the temp with my old remote reading BBQ probe thermometer. I'll aim for a 25% increase in volume and see how long it takes at ~80 F. My yeasted doughs based on Hamelman usually double in an overnight retarded bulk fermentation.
I am sold on the overnight retarded final proofing. I'll start at room temp for 1 - 1.5 hrs and then into the fridge.
First, thank you for your info about the Sourdough Journey guy. It looks like he has done a lot of work and I plan to watch his videos. By the way, your first link did not work for me, so I just googled for the website and YouTube channel. I just want to make a point that that guy has been doing his sourdough work only for a few years and Hamelman has been doing this for years. That said, I always feel that you can learn from anyone who may have a fresh point of view. Benny, who I have linked for you in this thread, always uses a rye starter and it works great for him. Also, when you retard your shaped dough overnight in the refrigerator, it really should not be necessary to leave it at room temperature beforehand. Maybe, your long proofing times are causing over proofing?
I think you owe it to yourself to follow Hamelman’s formula to the letter, adding some extra time to compensate for your cooler environment. Perhaps, you might want to invest in a proofer. I use mine for bulk fermentation and then for proofing if I am baking the same day. I set the temperature to whatever the recipe states as the target temperature. The thing is years ago, I somehow thought that sourdough baking was something really hard to do, and then when it finally worked , it became really easy. Some of the books suggest that you have to treat your starter as a pet, and I learned otherwise from Fresh Loaf, Hamelman and others.
I hope that you will soon just find the process fun and interesting and not so frustrating.
Some of my pre-sourdough breads, mostly from Hamelman, sometimes with adaptations to increase the WW %
Yeasted Breads
I think my biggest sourdough problem was inadequate bulk fermentation due to the low temp (73 F?). I'll try proofing around 78 - 79F and see if I get close to Hamelman's times for a ~30% volume increase.
Then, about 1 hr room temp proofing and into the fridge overnight.
I think you expressed so well what many of us on this forum have been saying- that Bittman’s whole wheat sourdough method is not terribly reliable. I, too, have been a follower of him for years. I think he has had a good, down-to-earth way with cooking, explaining that there are a lot of ways to produce good food. I think, though, in his hurry to spread the message that home bakers can produce good whole grain bread, he failed to discuss the pitfalls. I hope you do write to him and share these discussions with him. It would be useful to get his reaction and further thoughts.
Posted twice again!
Thanks, AnnD, Caryn, and Louis for all of you helpful tips and encouragement. I am intrigued by the longer bulk fermentation ideas mentioned by Louis and the emphasis on flexibility in the book. I will give it a try again tomorrow with (1) 'Superstarter step, (2) slightly longer bulk fermentation, and (3) may work to shape it and tuck it more effectively before the final rest/rise & bake in the dutch oven. Honestly, I've never had such a time baking sourdough bread; even the 'Longtrail rye' in Hammelmann with only a rye starter has double the oven-spring of this. Someone on here called it a "tasty Frisbee" -- quite apt. Will keep you posted. thanks for the support!
I think one of the problems Bittman ran into is that he created a book where all profits are on book sales. That leaves him no room to adapt the information and no ability to do a video, at least not until he no longer hopes to benefit from book sales. Absolutely it would be much more helpful to watch a video than read a book with a few static pictures. For this sort of adventure a blog with videos would have been much more useful, that's why they are so popular, but once he created a book that wasn't an option. It may be a book with all the promotions and tours helped get the world out, but we are all stuck with a method that needs more subtitles than he was able to get in the form of a book. One thing he does say, and he says this about all his non-bread recipes too, is that the recipe is flexible. Try adding more or less water, flour, time, etc. to make it work better for you.
I just watched The Bread Codes’s latest video. I highly recommend it!
https://youtu.be/msqU-ylXWUs
It is a great video but it left out one key item - the temp for the bulk fermentation. Bread Code 8 - 10 hrs contrasts with Hamelman/Tartine 2.5 - 4 hrs.
My first thought was the temp, but then I realized that Hamelman & Sourdough Journey/Tartine use a 12 hr levain and then a shorter bulk fermentation to about 30% volume increase after mixing the final dough. Bread Code goes right to the final dough and 8-12 hrs with nearly 100% volume increase (doubling).
Apparently both methods work with slightly more time needed for the levain. I'm sure there is a flavor difference and maybe different extensibility. It's probably analogous to using a poolish vs a straight dough with yeasted bread.
I bet some of Hamelman's preference for preferments (yeasted or sourdough) comes from production scheduling in a commercial bakery (as well as a flavor preference).
Yes, I am sure you are right. Hamelman uses a long build with the starter while Bread Code does it all at once, allowing all of the bread dough to bulk ferment for longer. I have done both and each method seems to work fine. As for temperature of the bulk ferment, Bread Code in other videos has discussed the affect of temperature on the process. He even developed a table for time and temperature that I can find for you, if you like. His main point is the bulk fermentation is a function of time and temperature and you can yield good results so long as you observe when the fermentation is done. That is why he puts some dough in a small tube, so you can observe the rise. Apparently, you can aim from anything from 25% to almost doubled. I am not sure he has an exact number. He may have discussed this in other videos. Note, that he immediately bakes the loaf that was refrigerated overnight. That’s what I almost always do.
I tried following Hamelman as closely as I could. There really is a big difference between bulk fermenting at 73℉ and 76 F. I kept the dough warm in the oven with the light on and off as needed and the timing matched those in the book pretty well
Vermont Sourdough w/ WW in San Diego
I was delighted with the grigne but on closer inspection it looks as if I need to build better dough strength to reduce spreading, even with an overnight proof in the fridge after an hour at room temp.
After reading a bunch of web pages and watching videos on sourdough bulk fermentation I think I finally understand why there is a 12 hr faction with volume doubling and a 3 hr faction with a 30% increase. It's analogous to straight dough vs a preferment with yeasted doughs.
At least in theory, preferments like a poolish or levain favor the bacteria, adding flavor. And the acid they creates also nibbles away at the gluten which improves extensibility. And you can use it in your production schedule to do the long preferment overnight with less sitting around time during the bulk ferment. the next day.
Hi, all, i am going to watch this Bread Code video right now. Thanks for recommending it.
So, since last i wrote, i ventured back into the 100% WW Bittman loaf; however, i watched Claire Saffitz's (sp?) (NYTimes) standard sourdough video on YouTube and did a few other things. (1) added the superstater step, (2) added a 1-hour autolyse (sp?) of the flour & water alone, (3) added the salt as part of a folding, (4) 3-hour bulk fermentation, folding every 30 mins, (4) BROKE OUT THE BANNETON! (5) after 1 1/2 rise in the banneton, rested it in the fridge to try to stiffen it up. After ALL of that, it still rose minimally, though more than my first couple of tries - about 2.5 to scant-3 inch rise. The dough was delightful, pillowy, billowing and soft - as it looked in Claire's video and as it looks when i do an 85% white flour & sourdough Poillaine (sp?) style - just before i placed it (as gently as a mother placing her infant in a warm bath) in the Dutch oven, (carefully) raced it to the cold oven and started the bake. It has a lovely crumb structure but not an impressive rise.
I was speaking to a friend of mine who owns a great bakery in Duxbury MA (My Little Bakery, if you are interested), and he just said "Yeah, you can't expect a spectacular rise with 100% WW and 100% WW starter. The bread will taste great, but it's not a show stopper."). Then i listened to Bittman and the co-author on a podcast, and while they both elegized the taste of the breads in the book and the ease, there was definitely a vibe of "here is something great-tasting that you can make at home," not something that you can make, then give as Holiday gifts, bring to dinner parties, and you know, generally make your bread bones on it.
So all this to say, i think 'that's all she wrote' on this 100% WW sourdough boule. Not a great rise, but pretty easy and tastes good.
I am on to the co-author's WW sandwich loaf in the book next, using all the changes above. I think/hope that putting it in a loaf pan will prevent excessive spreading and flatness of the Bittman bread.
(sorry for all the spelling errors - no time to go look up the proper spellings!)
It is interesting that you felt it necessary to add so many steps to Bittman’s technique, maybe just proving that his method is a bit too simple to work constantly well!
that's my conclusion as well.
I do love the starter. I like that there is not as much waste as with some other starters that need regular feedings. The starter performs well. I am trying the WW sandwich bread now, but including superstarter, autolyse, and using 100g KAF bread flour.
Hi, all, i have moved on from the basic Bittman bread recipe, because despite all efforts, the rise was just too lackluster, no matter how flexible or simple the recipe.
But, I am here to report that I made Kerri's sandwich bread, and it was fantastic. I did add an autolyse step with the flour and water, a 3-hour bulk ferment, and a 1+-hour proof before baking. I doused it with a bit of butter out of the oven. Very good, hearty, satisfying bread, but nice and soft with a lovely crumb structure. Highly recommend it.
It looks like the authors of the book could learn from you! I think you added the steps that they left out by their attempting to streamline the process. I think with yeast (sourdough or packaged) breads, you need to allow for sufficient time for the process to work.
As of April 18, 2022.
This is not a recommendation, just a heads-up for anyone who might want to get a $2 ebook to see if it would be worth spending more for the hardcopy.
https://www.amazon.com/Bittman-Bread-No-Knead-Whole-Grain-Baking-ebook/dp/B08NWT2VC5/
Free sample, in Kindle format, is also available.
I could never make it work, although I am also struggling with more conventional techniques, trying to get mixing, bulk fermentation, and proofing right.
If you are already baking sourdough bread, I wouldn't bother with it. If you want to try sourdough, maybe it's worth $2.
I found that that Bittman’s method was rather imperfect, but for $2 I am happy to have it in my library! Thank you idaveindy.
So I did a variation on the Bittman bread with some new wheat flour I ordered from Community Grains and it was a very good tasting bread, still had some nice sour flavor, but like many of my breads, it didn't rise nearly as high as I'd like. I cook in a Lodge Dutch oven, but my oven is in the process of dying a slow death. Doesn't heat up quite to 450 and I have to use a thermometer that I keep in the oven to monitor the temp. Every time my second loaf if flatter than the first, not sure why.
I get a good crumb with my non wheat breads but not so much with the wheat. But I will make this version again as the flavor was great, would like it to be a little more visually appealing so any advice is appreciated.
Kuper11- I have put on hold Bittman’s method for quite some time, but after making a lot of Hammelman’s recipes recently, I feel that the most important element for baking sourdough bread is making sure your starter is robust. I would definitely allow a good amount of time for the fed starter to work. Then you have a better chance of producing bread with a greater oven spring. My starter rarely does not more than double after about 6 to 8 hours, but it must be enough to levain the sourdough breads that I have been making since they usually come out well.
Here’s a link to my bread blog:
https://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/70118/my-bread-log