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For those who wish to limit or disengage from the flood of email notifications associated with long threads such as these CBs produce, Dan had written up how to do so
http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/66354/tip-how-stop-email-notification-any-topic
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As many of you know, Dan has been at the helm of the Community Bakes since its inception, and was his own invention. Along the way he created a community within the TFL community with smashing success. Recently Dan asked if I was interested in taking the steering wheel for a while, feeling that he needed to step away for some time. Rather than hosting, he’d rather assume the role of contributor. Gladly!
Suggesting 4 categories to explore for this CB, I asked for those interested to select one. The overwhelming response was rye. My goal was to find a few breads that were not demanding of extraordinary time, effort and particularly avoiding out of the ordinary ingredients or baking tools and hardware. And all having a common theme.
Paul McCool suggested I consider the Eric Hanner Jewish Rye Bread. Eric passed away unexpectedly 8 years ago this month. From all accounts he was a liked and well respected participant in the community. This CB is in memory of Eric.
I offer three differing Jewish Bakery/Deli style Rye Breads. All provide unique experiences as far as how the dough will react during all phases. All employ a 100% hydration preferment.
The first two breads have a link to the original post. The third is my own interpretation as well as my experience and steps.
Eric Hanner employs what he refers to as a Sponge, It is composed of 26% rye, and 71.5% hydration. If your experience is anything like mine, the dough will challenge the newly initiated Rye baker to a formidable sticky and difficult dough to manage. It bakes up beautifully and has an extraordinary taste.
David Snyder uses a Rye Sour. Built in three stages. It is composed of 44% rye and 72% hydration. Contrary to any reasonable expectation considering the elevated rye percentage, it does not exhibit any of the overly sticky qualities of the first dough. I would consider this the closest of the three to a true NY Jewish bakery rye bread.
Alfanso’s is a faux Jewish Bakery Rye, for contrast and variety. It uses a standard AP flour Levain. It is composed of 25% rye and 73.5% hydration. I treat the dough as I do for mostly every other bread that I make. It is the most manageable of the three and the least traditional. If you wish to use a Rye Levain instead, make the appropriate adjustments to the amount of AP and rye flours for the final mix. Percentages will not need to be adjusted (unless you want), only the amounts at Final Mix time.
My blog post of the 3 formula write-ups are found here.
Notes:
- All three breads call for a Medium Rye Flour. Mine is also stone ground.
- All three of my own entries will be found in this link and have been scaled at 1000g.
- These can be made within a 2 day span or less:
- Eric’s version is made with a 1 stage overnight sponge, but if you are an early riser, the entire process can be done in the course of a day, the first 8 hours awaiting the sponge to complete fermentation.
- David’s requires the 3 stage rye sour, which will take a full day to accomplish. However, for the sake of expediency, I’ve whittled that down to ~6 hours via a heating pad and maintaining a 90dF environment for the rye to ferment. This may sacrifice some of the qualities a longer fermentation, but can also be done in a short day. This version also uses a significant boost of IDY, hence the short period between mix and bake.
- Alfanso’s requires a levain to be readied. Mixing and fermentation are minimal, but the formula asks for an overnight retard. Instead, a few hours of countertop proofing if you wish, although I’ve never done that.
Traditional Jewish Rye Bread “begs" the use of an ultra high gluten flour, I wanted to avoid requesting people to source something along the lines of a First Clear flour. For the first two I use a supermarket brand bread flour that may be as high as 12.9% protein. For the third I use my standard King Arthur AP flour that has a stated protein of 11.7%, but to get a more optimal result I did add VWG.
You do not need an ultra high gluten flour to produce these. Unfortunately if your only available flours are weaker than what I mention above, you may have to supplement the flour with something like a Vital Wheat Gluten to elevate the protein. If you decide to do this, there is the long-way manual tool Pearson’s Square, which can be used to adjust protein percentages. OR use this link to the Foodgeek VWG% calculator.
All three breads have caraway seeds added, as do many Jewish Rye breads. You can eliminate these if you wish or supplement / replace them with a fennel seed, for instance.
A few references about rye flours:
- https://wholegrainscouncil.org/whole-grains-101/grain-month-calendar/rye-triticale-august-grains-month/types-rye.
- http://theryebaker.com/rye-flour/
- http://www.thefreshloaf.com/handbook/rye-flour
The fine print...
As always, the CB is a place created for a collaborative effort, both to enhance one’s skills as well as to help others with their skills. By no means are the formulae meant to be the be-all-andend-all of the CB. Rather, they are a framework of three distinct ways to achieve a bread that meets the general criteria. I encourage you to experiment and explore, to modify and to introduce to our CB participants your own experiences and versions. And most of all, to learn and help all of us to better ourselves as bakers. I also encourage you to find something you like, change one or many things about it and to make it your own!
And as Dan said:
All bakers of every skill level are invited to participate. Novice bakers are especially welcomed and plenty of assistance will be available for the asking. The Community Bakes are non-competitive events that are designed around the idea of sharing kitchens with like minded bakers around the world, "cyber style". To participate, simply photograph and document your bakes. You are free to use any formula and process you wish. Commercial Yeast, sourdough, or a combination of both are completely acceptable. Once the participants gets active, many bakers will post their formulas and methods. There will be many variations to choose from.
Here is a list of our past CBs. They remain active and are monitored by numerous users that are ready, willing, and able to help if assistance is needed. A quick browse of past CBs will provide an accurate picture of what these events are all about.
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Since many of the CBs grow quite large, it can become difficult to follow the progress of each individual baker. Things get very spread out. In an attempt to alleviate congestion and consolidate individual baker’s bread post, the following is suggested.
Links to baker’s BLOGs that have posted a compiled list of bakes for this CB
End note: By no means do I consider myself a skilled rye baker. This is my first experience baking Eric’s version and my third with David’s. My own version I bake with some frequency.
*For the original postings please click the links above. My posting of the formula write-ups, click here.
The dough has been napping in the fridge since this morning. It will be shaped after dinner and baked later tonight. I just hope I do it justice, but there will be photos either way. Fingers crossed!
Is that my Genea salami and cheese sandwich in the opening shot of the baguette PDF? It sure looks like my countertop, cutting board, and I kind of remember buying the hot pepper condiment at Eataly. If it is, wow, I am honored by the honorary mention! That is some good company to be associated with!
I was looking for a picture that would sum up all that is beautiful and possible with a fine baguette.
A few decades ago I queried a few friends about what their all time favorite sandwich was. Tuna probably took the lead over BLT. But mine was a Genoa and Provolone with roasted red pepper on a sesame seeded semolina baguette.
I am speechless!
Merry Christmas dear TFL members!
This is my submission for the community bake, I hope I am not too late with it!
The recipe is adapted based on the Hamelman's recipe "40% caraway rye". I made a blog entry with more details and video about how I made it:
Any bake at any time is never too late. The Community Bakes are always open to participation. Many of us monitor the CB and are happy to reply to new entries. I will be baking another 40% Hamelman today.
I checked out your blog and followed the links to YouTube. What a great video. You are multi-talented and we are blessed with your input.
Keep it up and keep them coming...
Danny
Thank you so much, Dan!. Although I bake bread 2-3 times a week not all of them end up on my blog or on my Youtube channel :) There are a lot of trials and errors behind and I am sure I am not the only one. On the other side, with every single bread, I learn more and I am able to identify early if I am on the right track to make the proper adjustments. Sometimes I do videos only for myself to review what went wrong.
I am happy to be part of this community and for sure I will come back.
Merry Christmas!
Stunning! At first I thought the decoration was made by scoring, that would have been a technical masterpiece. But the crumb for 40% rye, wow! Your dough seems to behave almost like normal wheat dough.
Happy Holidays!
Thank you so much for your appreciation! I just sprinkled cocoa powder for the decoration over a stencil that my daughter use for Christmas cards. I am sure that an experienced painter/designer can make with just scoring a masterpiece decoration on bread. I wish I had these skills but I don't.
The secret for such an airy crumb is the strong flour with already developed gluten through autolyse. I also extended the fermentation to the maximum, I even thought I over fermented the dough. Luckily, in the end, it turned out perfect for my taste.
Enjoy the holidays!
Denisa, wow wow wow. These are gorgeous, quite a gorgeous bake. Stunning ear and beautiful crumb. I’m going to look at your youtube channel but the quality of this one you posted is superb, very professional.
Benny
Thank you so much, Benny! The ear on these loaves was like a little Christmas present for me :). Indeed, airy crumb and bread ears don't make a good marriage with rye bread, but if you sprinkle some love over, it can make a miracle.
The strong flour with gluten network already developed at the moment of the preferment addition was the secret in my recipe.
Denisa.
These look very professional.
Thank you!
40% Sourdough Rye has always been more of a "working bread" at my house (if that makes sense, haha!), but this rye is dressed up and going to the party! And with a crumb like that, what's not to celebrate? Love it.
Bread party! If I cannot gather people in my house for these holidays, at least we make a party with bread loaves :) The dress code is a must no matter who's coming. Thank you so much for your nice comment!
instructional video accompaniment. As Dan states, 40% is a lovely sweet spot for these types of rye breads.
Alan
Thank you so much, Alan!
Here are my last few rye community bakes (#5-8 from top to bottom), veering towards a not-quite-deli-rye using home milled whole grains all at approximately 40% rye and 60 % neutral white whole wheat. I started with dmsnyder's formula, but have been experimenting with a whole grain friendly cool low hydration rye starter instead of the multi stage rye sour and have skipped the glaze to streamline things for faster practice bakes, resulting in a somewhat simplified bread. After seeing Alfanso's glazed beauties, I should attempt the glaze again, and it would be good to compare these with the multi-stage rye sour version in both flavor and form (oven spring, etc). Most of these had a room temperature bulk fermentation followed by an overnight proof in the fridge that went directly in the pre-heated oven. Due to schedule, one of them used a refrigerated bulk fermentation and a room temperature final proof, and it produced a bolder flavor. All of these used an overnight saltolyse that delivers good pre-mix gluten development (similar to Dan's preference for pre-kneading) and were baked in a cloche. I was inspired by Ilya's choice of lamination mixing and have followed suit: pizza shaping followed by pasting with the hydrated rye sour, rolling up and mixing with liberal use of the sprayer. I've been happy with the crumb, but have still had fairly consistent blowouts due to the high percentage of rye. I've seen mentions of a serrated knife, which might lend itself to more aggressive scoring than the usual razor bread lame. I have been pushing the final proof to 1.5x or so in anticipation of oven spring, as with whole wheat bakes, but perhaps pushing the final proof further along to realize more of the final shape before baking will help reduce oven spring induced stress related blowouts.
Very nice Rye Breads. I’ve never been to a New York Rye Bakery, but I would expect to see breads that look much like yours.
I was interested in pushing the 40% rye further and attempted my first 100% rye bake after picking up a new bag of rye berries to replenish my stock from the deli rye practice bakes. I have been reading through Daniel Leader's Local Breads and liked the look of Denise Polzelbauer's family Volkernbrot, which uses a two stage rye sour build at 8 and 24 hours respectively, and a lot of coarse rye and rye chops in the final mix. I tried to guesstimate all of this using a Mockmill 200 and kitchen sieves. I baked it in a large Pullman pan instead of the two 9x5 pans it calls for. The recipe also calls for a slow + low 1 1/2 - 2 hour bake at 375 F with a target final temperature of 190 F, which sounds low. When I checked it at the 1 1/2 hour mark it was well above this at 208 F or so, but the loaf still feels very moist when slicing after 12 hours. If anything, I think it could go longer next time as the bottom seems just a touch underdone. Use of a long single Pullman pan may call for a longer and/or hotter bake. My understanding is the flavor and loaf will continue to evolve over the next few days. It has a very strong and rich flavor, although I don't have much familiarity with these loafs in general. In any case it is an interesting departure from my whole wheat baking, with all of the gluten-centric practices that entails. I posted additional detail in a blog post.
The seeded crust is perfect. I don’t think that can be improved upon.
You may find something interesting in THIS LINK. You have the option of leaving the top off with that method. The nice thing about BF/proofing in the pan is that the dough is not disturbed after it starts the bulk ferment.
THIS LINK deals specifically with Rye Bread in a pullman.
Thanks for the links and reference to The Rye Baker. I haven't come across many references discussing technique in rye baking, other than stir and scoop, so this might be an interesting read to help improve things. Maybe 100% rye deserves its own CB at some point. There seem to be at least a few "full time" rye bakers in the forum. I'm equally drawn to the two extremes of the bread shaping spectrum (more so than the in-between): the organic free standing hearth loaves, and the perfectly geometric carefully portioned cuboid loaves from the Pullman pan like the ones you posted. I also have a smaller Pullman, and thought about filling that one to the top to realize the full shape, but my intuition (right or wrong) was that the dense rye batter might not bake as well in such a tall shape. The flavor has definitely evened out (to my liking) after 36 hours, but the bread knife does gum up slightly when slicing, which makes me think I should bake the next one a little longer.
HeadUp, a good idea for any pullman bread, but especially rye is to remove from the pan once the loaf has set and bake with the bottom and both sides down on the shelf, turning it 3 separate times. It’s a great way to fully bake the loaf. It should avoid gumminess.
Thanks for the tip. I'll try that next time.
This looks like a very satisfying loaf. Super moist, well aerated crumb, and those seeds! Great bake.
Thanks. I baked these with the Pullman lid on for the first hour or so thinking that might improve oven spring (if there is such a thing with rye) and removed it for the last half hour to dry things up. I love seeds too. Next time I will try to integrate them throughout for a proper Volkornbrot Mit Sonnenblumen! This is definitely a good mid week bread -- very little to do but wait.
and for 100% rye, the open crumb (for rye) slices look to be surprisingly light vs. the heavy dense versions.
Alan
Thanks Alan. I used an aliquot jar to reach the 25 to 30 percent rise called for in the recipe, but it moved so quickly it probably hit 40% or more by the time I got it in the oven. It does seem more aerated at the top than the bottom, and I'm curious about how this could be improved. Perhaps a change in fermentation or hydration.
To see the full compilation of all of my rye bakes see THIS LINK.
Bake #7
I wanted to explore adding whole wheat to Hamelman’s 40% Rye in the hopes that the bread would produce stronger braids. But that was not to be. 30% whole rye, 10% Hard Red Spring Wheat, and 60 white flour. The raw dough braided very well, better than last time. But the braids split open much more that the first attempt.
BTW - I didn’t care for the flavor of the newly introduced Hard Red Wheat. I much prefer the percentages and formula in Hamelman’s original formula. After 7 consecutive rye bakes, I whole heartedly agree with Another Girl that 40% rye is the sweet spot. No more, no less. For my taste 40% rye (100% extraction) is strong enough for me, but not too strong.
Here’s proof that I post the good, the bad, and the ugly.
Looks can be deceiving.
There is such beautiful symmetry to well done plaits, and this certainly qualifies. It is possible that a braid needs a more flexible dough to hold together, and perhaps a 40% rye is not it. Maybe why a challah bread can maintain cohesion and this may not be able to do so.
I think the post-bake looks fine even if you are disappointed. And it will still make great bread for sandwiches, a slathering of this or that , and of course for me, toast.
If you put this in a bakery window, you'd have a line of hungry folks queued up for loaf.
Alan
of bread flour perhaps the opposite approach is needed. People often make the mistake of braiding challah too loose thinking when it expands it'll help keep the braids. Whereas when it comes to rye braiding more loose might actually help since it doesn't have the same extensibility. Allowing the smaller amount of oven spring just to expand a little all the while keeping the shape. Purely a theory!
I agree with Alain, you were born to braid Dan.
Benny
You are a on a roll with the plaiting. I'll have to try this at some point, perhaps to improve presentation of my gifted loaves.
Since Hodgsen's Mill was bought out, I have not seen ANY rye flour on any store shelf in 2 geographic locations (Minnesota and Florida). Where is everyone sourcing their rye flour?
the loss of Hodgson Mills, but found a nice alternative. Great River Mill in Wisconsin sells dark rye, an even finer grind than Hodgson. I bought a 25 lb. bag, which has certainly one in handy for the CB as the last of my Hodgson was running out.
There may be other sizes available. Their only sales outlet seems to be through Amazon, so if you have an aversion to buying through them, this rye is out. I have a Prime membership so shipping was free and the bag cost ~ $35 US. Delivery at the time was swift and boxed well. All in all I'm quite pleased with finding them.
I see Bob's Red Mill products at various stores.
Various types of rye flour are at www.nybakers.com
Organic dark rye flour is at www.clnf.org for $5/5 lbs, and $21.25/25 lbs, not including shipping.
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Be forewarned of the special definition of "dark rye flour" at NY Bakers -- it is not the same as "whole grain rye."
Find my rye CB bakes here.
I've neglected my rye starter in the fridge for a while, since I have been using the white stiff starter recently. But I decided to revive it, and it took a little longer than I expected, so I accumulated a lot of fresh, but not very active discard. And I remembered that I recently saw Bread Code post a video about bread mainly made using discard: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7V3FyVzzVUI
So in case others have rye discard, I thought this would be interesting to share here.
So I adapted it a little bit, for example using seeds instead of wheat berries, but the process is so simple that there is not much to discuss. Here is my formula:
400 g discard/not very active starter
255 g water
255 g whole rye flour
15 g soaked and roughly chopped crystal rye malt
100 g linseeds
100 g sunflower seeds
8 g salt
Of note, soaking malted rye makes it much softer, and even just my food processor could roughly chop it with some water. I think I could crush it very finely with a pestle and mortar, for the next time I am making a scalded rye bread (like Borodinsky).
Fermented for 5 hours. Seeds must have absorbed a lot of water, so in the end the dough was much stiffer than in the beginning, and than in the video. So I shaped it into short logs to fit into my small bread pans, and proofed for around 2 hours. I also added some oats to the oiled pan, and on top of the bread. It only rose a little. I baked it with steam for 40 minutes, and then finished without steam for a short time. Then left to cool, and cut just now after a day for it to mature.
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I was worried it might be too sour, but it isn't, very pleasant taste in my opinion, and seeds add a lot of flavour.
Lovely looking loaf Ilya, I really like the amount of seeds that you’ve used. I’m surprised it isn’t more sour tasting since you’ve used rye discard.
Benny
Thanks Benny! It has a tang to it, but not too strong. Maybe the seeds dilute the sourness... Or my discard wasn't very sour, since it was quite fresh mostly, and not very active in the recovery phase.
May I have a slice? :-)
Alan, I respectfully request a name change for these little gems. There's nothing "faux" about them.
The four baguettes in the photo were all from the same batch of dough, proofed and cold retarded in the same mass. They were ulimtately portioned, refrigerated for a couple more hours on the same tray and finally baked in two different ovens. The two on the left were baked in my standard oven while the two on the right were baked in a new countertop combi steam oven. The set-up in the conventional oven was pretty standard: baking stone on the second lowest rack and a cast iron skillet full of lava rocks on the second highest rack. One cup of boiling water was poured over the lava rocks when the dough was put in the oven.
This is my second time baking bread in the combi steam oven. The first time I baked bread in it, I set steam for 100% and used the oven temp called for in the recipe. The bread cooked super fast (it was a boule) but came out great. Because I was making a bread with much higher surface area to volume ratio this time, I reduced the oven temp by 20°F to 450°F and reduced the steam to 80%. They were done in 15 minutes.
I think the results speak for themselves.
Alas, I have not the talent of Alan and some others for the baguette. No spectacular bloom or grigne, but the formula did yield a lovely light open crumb – although you can see some tightness in the crumb on the darker baguettes because I fumbled the sticky dough when scaling the pieces. Despite my failings, the formula itself is superb. I mean, absolutely delicious with a light rye tang. Here, they are spread with my hand-churned butter and sprinkled with a little truffle salt that a friend told me about (thanks, Dan!). Sublime. Tomorrow, some cured meats will join the party.
Wow, really nice baguettes AG. The new combi steam oven seems to do a great job, love the colour of the crust on those two especially. You achieved a very nice open crumb on your baguettes. I guess this is the new in thing now to bake rye baguettes!
Benny
Suprised that the conventional oven pair are so pale, but the Anova two have great color. I'll assume that you are both happier and a tad more adept on this second bake in the combi.
This is my go-to rye bread formula, and has been a compliant servant to my oven for a few years now. There's nothing that I don't like about it.
"Alas, I have not the talent of Alan and some others for the baguette." Not to be in the same universe as the chap but what was it that Thomas Edison said? 10% inspiration, 90% perspiration. Good luck, attentiveness and developed skill over time was my road to baggie success. Scoring these beasts is a different ballgame than either batards or boules, and it takes a new learned touch to figure them out. You already show the signs of understanding the "dynamics" of baguette scoring, mainly keeping the scores in their own lane both down the length of the baton as well as within close and consistent range of the prior score line. Also going "cabo a rabo", head to tail, on the start and end of the scores. But I will point out that there is too much overlap between scores. Typically aim for somewhere around a 1/3 overlap.
But if you care enough about baking this shape, you will! And it won't take all that long either.
What is the maximum baton length you can fit into the Anova?
Deli ryes used to come out of my standard oven with a dark mahogany crust, but a year or year and a half ago, that changed. Looking at these two sets of loaves, I realize that something about the way I generate steam or the oven's ability to retain it has changed. (I'm pretty sure I haven't changed anything and the oven is almost 20 years old, so there ya go.)
The Anova cavity is about 16" wide, so 13-ish" would probably be max baton length. I ordered a 16" wide baking steel, but the seller says it won't arrive till the 11th. Yesterday's baguettes were baked on the bottom of a Challenger bread pan (the only appropriate surface I have that fits inside the Anova), so they were maybe about 9" or 10" long and placed closer together than I'd like. The learning curve on this oven is steeper than expected, and I'm not convinced the unit I received is 100% operationally sound, but I want to give it a good workout and make sure it's not just me being a dope. I can up my baguette game and figure how the darn oven works at the same time :-)
I do love the idea of rye baguettes and will keep these in the rotation. Thanks!
As activity has slowed significantly these past two weeks, unless I hear otherwise and folks are still clamoring to leave it at the top of the postings, I'll ask Floyd to unpin the Rye from the top the Recent Posts section.
As with all other CBs, this will remain forever active and monitored by anyone still receiving comments. Please do continue to participate if you desire.
After a short break and some more "testing", I'll present another CB in the coming weeks. I'd rather keep the focus of the CB close to my vest for now, as I still have some homework to do in prep for it.
Thanks to all who participated and hopefully helped ALL OF US to learn and grow.
Alan
Thanks for taking this over, Allan. Danny boy did a great job building the community bakes into a premium part of this great club. Keep in mind that to short a break in between, may take away from the mystique. At least that's what Danny told me when I was bugging him to start up a new one. Smile.
Not exactly Deli Rye, but I thought rye aficionados might be interested in my yesterday's rye bake: http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/67013/noblemans-bread-80-rye-seeds
Since I went rogue (100% Whole Rye) on this one, you’ll have to follow THIS LINK to check it out.
Decided to bake this again with minor modifications to the recipe and procedure. Also did the onion as suggested by David.
Details of the bake here.
One change I made is that after the autolyse, I added a small portion of the levain because I found the dough to be just too dry for my mixer to develop.
This baked up so well with a soft crumb and crisp thin crust. The onion was just right.,