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For those who wish to limit or disengage from the flood of email notifications associated with long threads such as these CBs produce, Dan had written up how to do so
http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/66354/tip-how-stop-email-notification-any-topic
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As many of you know, Dan has been at the helm of the Community Bakes since its inception, and was his own invention. Along the way he created a community within the TFL community with smashing success. Recently Dan asked if I was interested in taking the steering wheel for a while, feeling that he needed to step away for some time. Rather than hosting, he’d rather assume the role of contributor. Gladly!
Suggesting 4 categories to explore for this CB, I asked for those interested to select one. The overwhelming response was rye. My goal was to find a few breads that were not demanding of extraordinary time, effort and particularly avoiding out of the ordinary ingredients or baking tools and hardware. And all having a common theme.
Paul McCool suggested I consider the Eric Hanner Jewish Rye Bread. Eric passed away unexpectedly 8 years ago this month. From all accounts he was a liked and well respected participant in the community. This CB is in memory of Eric.
I offer three differing Jewish Bakery/Deli style Rye Breads. All provide unique experiences as far as how the dough will react during all phases. All employ a 100% hydration preferment.
The first two breads have a link to the original post. The third is my own interpretation as well as my experience and steps.
Eric Hanner employs what he refers to as a Sponge, It is composed of 26% rye, and 71.5% hydration. If your experience is anything like mine, the dough will challenge the newly initiated Rye baker to a formidable sticky and difficult dough to manage. It bakes up beautifully and has an extraordinary taste.
David Snyder uses a Rye Sour. Built in three stages. It is composed of 44% rye and 72% hydration. Contrary to any reasonable expectation considering the elevated rye percentage, it does not exhibit any of the overly sticky qualities of the first dough. I would consider this the closest of the three to a true NY Jewish bakery rye bread.
Alfanso’s is a faux Jewish Bakery Rye, for contrast and variety. It uses a standard AP flour Levain. It is composed of 25% rye and 73.5% hydration. I treat the dough as I do for mostly every other bread that I make. It is the most manageable of the three and the least traditional. If you wish to use a Rye Levain instead, make the appropriate adjustments to the amount of AP and rye flours for the final mix. Percentages will not need to be adjusted (unless you want), only the amounts at Final Mix time.
My blog post of the 3 formula write-ups are found here.
Notes:
- All three breads call for a Medium Rye Flour. Mine is also stone ground.
- All three of my own entries will be found in this link and have been scaled at 1000g.
- These can be made within a 2 day span or less:
- Eric’s version is made with a 1 stage overnight sponge, but if you are an early riser, the entire process can be done in the course of a day, the first 8 hours awaiting the sponge to complete fermentation.
- David’s requires the 3 stage rye sour, which will take a full day to accomplish. However, for the sake of expediency, I’ve whittled that down to ~6 hours via a heating pad and maintaining a 90dF environment for the rye to ferment. This may sacrifice some of the qualities a longer fermentation, but can also be done in a short day. This version also uses a significant boost of IDY, hence the short period between mix and bake.
- Alfanso’s requires a levain to be readied. Mixing and fermentation are minimal, but the formula asks for an overnight retard. Instead, a few hours of countertop proofing if you wish, although I’ve never done that.
Traditional Jewish Rye Bread “begs" the use of an ultra high gluten flour, I wanted to avoid requesting people to source something along the lines of a First Clear flour. For the first two I use a supermarket brand bread flour that may be as high as 12.9% protein. For the third I use my standard King Arthur AP flour that has a stated protein of 11.7%, but to get a more optimal result I did add VWG.
You do not need an ultra high gluten flour to produce these. Unfortunately if your only available flours are weaker than what I mention above, you may have to supplement the flour with something like a Vital Wheat Gluten to elevate the protein. If you decide to do this, there is the long-way manual tool Pearson’s Square, which can be used to adjust protein percentages. OR use this link to the Foodgeek VWG% calculator.
All three breads have caraway seeds added, as do many Jewish Rye breads. You can eliminate these if you wish or supplement / replace them with a fennel seed, for instance.
A few references about rye flours:
- https://wholegrainscouncil.org/whole-grains-101/grain-month-calendar/rye-triticale-august-grains-month/types-rye.
- http://theryebaker.com/rye-flour/
- http://www.thefreshloaf.com/handbook/rye-flour
The fine print...
As always, the CB is a place created for a collaborative effort, both to enhance one’s skills as well as to help others with their skills. By no means are the formulae meant to be the be-all-andend-all of the CB. Rather, they are a framework of three distinct ways to achieve a bread that meets the general criteria. I encourage you to experiment and explore, to modify and to introduce to our CB participants your own experiences and versions. And most of all, to learn and help all of us to better ourselves as bakers. I also encourage you to find something you like, change one or many things about it and to make it your own!
And as Dan said:
All bakers of every skill level are invited to participate. Novice bakers are especially welcomed and plenty of assistance will be available for the asking. The Community Bakes are non-competitive events that are designed around the idea of sharing kitchens with like minded bakers around the world, "cyber style". To participate, simply photograph and document your bakes. You are free to use any formula and process you wish. Commercial Yeast, sourdough, or a combination of both are completely acceptable. Once the participants gets active, many bakers will post their formulas and methods. There will be many variations to choose from.
Here is a list of our past CBs. They remain active and are monitored by numerous users that are ready, willing, and able to help if assistance is needed. A quick browse of past CBs will provide an accurate picture of what these events are all about.
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Since many of the CBs grow quite large, it can become difficult to follow the progress of each individual baker. Things get very spread out. In an attempt to alleviate congestion and consolidate individual baker’s bread post, the following is suggested.
Links to baker’s BLOGs that have posted a compiled list of bakes for this CB
End note: By no means do I consider myself a skilled rye baker. This is my first experience baking Eric’s version and my third with David’s. My own version I bake with some frequency.
*For the original postings please click the links above. My posting of the formula write-ups, click here.
I am using home milled non sifted at 83% I put dry rye flour on the top and the cracks are apparent as well as lots of gas bubbles below. Mine seemed ready at any point beyond 12 hours at 70 degrees.
I would say it's more of a flavoring since CY is also in the mix as in most of the Hammelman rye breads.
This is what the levain looks like.
It is a thick, sticky mess. It could be used to patch sheet rock:-) The levain doesn’t rise much but it is evident that fermentation has taken place. The insides are airy, but the dough remains heavy.
I’ve made good rye with it before, just wanting to get feedback from others.
It does look a little dense, almost like silt – which makes me wonder if the rye is very finely ground. I haven't ground rye in a number of years and have been using KAF Pumpernickel, which I think is rather coarsely ground. I'm no expert, but I would imagine that the grind could account for differences in texture and the relative "openness" of the mixture. As could the variety of rye. But if the starter a does good job of raising dough and you like the finished bread, it's all good ?.
After working a bit with lower hydration whole rye levain now, I have to say I was wrong - using the same flour at 100% hydration my starter can more than double, but at lower hydration (80% or 70%) it feels very dry (hydrating all of the flour is quite challenging in a tall jar) and doesn't rise as much. I am not sure if it's just a general property of rye, or, what was suspecting, is that the rye flour is milled more coarsely than in Germany or Eastern Europe, and doesn't hydrate as easily. I've seen a mention of this somewhere as a difference between rye flour in UK/US/etc and the countries with a long rye bread tradition. Not sure how finely you mill your flour.
But I agree, at lower hydration mine clearly doesn't trap the gas as well, and doesn't seem to grow beyond ~50%. (Unless there is just something wrong with my starter at the moment...)
Ilya, I use a Cambro container. It is somewhat wide and tall.
I find the 100% extraction whole rye to be very thick.
OK, the width is probably not helping, it might not be able to hold the gas in the center so well. If I were you and really wanted to figure it out, I'd just repeat it in a narrower vessel. I am sure it can rise plenty. But as commented above, even if it's not rising much but it's smelling good and the consistency is changed (I think if you poke it you'll still see plenty of bubbles inside), it's good to use!
In the winter, our kitchen is cold so I keep it in the proofer at 70°F. Hamelman says 14-16 hrs but it doesn't usually take that long. More like 12-14 hrs, but it has gone to 15 hrs on occasion. In the summer, the house is well above 70°F, so I mix the levain last thing before bed, put it in the basement and say a prayer. I guess you could skip the prayer and reduce the seed amount :-)
A compilation of all rye bakes can be seen on MY BLOG.
When it comes to Rye Bread, Hamelman’s 40% Rye is my go-to Rye Formula. At 40% rye, especially at 100% extraction, the rye flavor is pushed to my flavor limit. The flavor difference between whole rye and rye that has been sifted to remove the bran and other large particles is huge! Since baking this formula, the breads have been moist and nice tasting.
The 1% diastatic malt was dropped and the Chocolate Malt (N/D) was scaled back to 1%. Those changes worked well and will be repeated in the future. The concept of fully developing the white flour before adding the rye levain has consistently worked well for me.
I really like Doc’s idea of sprinkling kosher salt on the crust (taste great), but I have noticed that it tends to melt, leaving small dark spots on the crust.
They look very good. The crumb looks great for a 40% whole rye; is that attributed to the white flour development before the rye levain? What is the effect of the chocolate malt? The good shaping is reflected in the crumb.
Cheers,
Gavin.
Gavin, the chocolate malt does two things.
As far as developing the white flour before adding the Rye levain. I am no authority on rye, but my rationale for this in that rye is somewhat large percentages makes a dough sticky, slimy, and an overall mess. So I figured if the gluten was well developed in the white flour first (a strong white flour is used for this), then the dough would be more apt to handle the incorporation of rye. What I do know is that all of the rye doughs (25, 35, & 40% whole rye) that I have baked, have handled somewhat like a typical wheat sourdough. They are easy to shape and score. I bet if I tried I could braid rye dough with a little patience and much care :-)
Danny
The flavors with rye in the 40-45% range just can't be beat. Really consistent crumb, and the shaping is coming along so nicely, especially if you compare it to your first few bakes.
PiPs doesn't have anything to worry about from either of us in the chevron scoring department, not with rye for anytime soon anyway! I think we'll have way more success with the chevron cut on a different type of bread.
Alan, I liked the fact that the dough didn’t blow out with the chevrons. I’ve had problems with that in the past.
Danny, these are very handsome loaves. They stand tall – and no blowouts. I haven't baked the 40% Rye bread in a while because I've been more focused on holiday baking and test driving other rye formulas for the CB, but the next time I make the 40% Rye, I plan to try your technique of developing the gluten in the AP flour first. The chevrons are pretty, too.
That crumb is outstanding Dan, you really have these rye bakes figured out and from a very very early stage.
Benny
Benny, I REALLY think the white flour gluten development has a lot to do with my success.
I know you’ve tried the method. Have you tried the rye without that method? What are your conclusions?
No I have only made the two rye breads with Eric’s recipe and have used your method of fully developing the gluten before adding the rye sour. I figure why change and try without fully developing the gluten when doing so works so well.
Benny
These loaves look inviting. I'll be picking up some chocolate malt. Do you have any conclusions about techniques for scoring these 40% rye loaves, avoid blowouts, etc?
HeadUp, it is my present thought that a bunch of scores have the best chance of preventing blowouts. Haven’t tested it long enough to know for sure.
I can say that the last bake of two loaves had one perfectly proofed and the other, over-proofed. The first loaf baked was too long to fit the stone without slanting it, thus two separate bakes and the last one over-proofed. It is interesting that the crumb on both loaves looked similar. BTW, the first loaf was long and skinnier.
I recommend keeping tne chocolate malt to 1% for the first attempt. That stuff is powerful :-)
I bought some Organic Rye flour which did look like white rye but didn't specify on the packet. The description on the back was...
"This ancient grain flour produces dense, dark, richly flavoured bread......"
So i thought perhaps it looks pale but when mixed with water it'll take on it's true colour. Not specifying either way but with that description it could be just the variety and/or appearance when ground. However I was out of rye and bought it even though deep down I knew it's gotta be white rye.
As soon as I opened the packet, got a closer look and put together the pre-ferment I knew it was white rye. Have used it before and couldn't be mistaken. It's a heck of a lot sticker than whole rye and it's basically like clay. If you think whole rye is sticky wait till you try white rye. Don't use white rye often even though I have easy access to it at a local store (which I would have gone to if wishing to purchase some rather than going further afield only to end up with the same thing). Produces nice results and tasty loaves but it's not easy to work with. I persevered and carried on with Hamelman's 40% Rye with Caraway seeds...
Overall Formula:
Sourdough: 14-16 hours
Built it in the dough bowl and left it for 16 hours. Difficult to tell how much it exactly grew as it was in a big bowl but looked like quadrupled 'atleast'!
Final Dough:
Formed the dough by adding the water to the bowl and mixed till starter was fully distributed and the water turned milky. Added the flour, salt and caraway seeds then mixed till a very sticky dough formed. At this point it looked like no knead dough. I did my best to knead by mixing, rubaud method and kneading till it resembled a dough. Best I can describe it... a sticky ball of clay with gluten.
Bulk fermented for 1 hour and it increased in size about double. Again, difficult to tell in a big bowl. Shaped into a lekue (silicone pouch) which I very rarely use it preferring a Pullman but it needs to be replaced. My oven set-up doesn't allow for freestanding loaves however the dough was small enough for good expansion as it's not as supported as a loaf pan. Didn't score the loaf as it's clay like texture, I thought, wouldn't allow for scoring. The oven spring was excellent and it did blow out a bit however I think it looks nice and makes a better photograph than the plain side. The dough has a nice hollow sound when tapped and feels light when picked up. Cooling now.
Turns out it doesn't need as long before cutting into. A few hours is ample. Quite a nice crumb, creamy texture and a mild flavour allowing the caraway seeds to shine. Lots of people find the caraway strong but I think it compliments the rye and isn't overpowering at all. A very nice bake which will toast up well.
It looks really good Abe, I’m interested to see the crumb you’ve achieved, I’m sure it will be great.
So far so good. Everything points to a success and a good crumb but we'll see. I'm curious too but will wait till properly cooled. Perhaps later in tonight or tomorrow. 40% rye might be ok to cool for a few hours.
Very happy with the overall bake Benny. A soft creamy crumb and the caraway compliments the pleasantly mild flavour. Not tangy at all nor are the caraway seeds over powering. Well balanced, very more-ish and will toast up well. It's tasty and leaves your mouth watering (literally the texture and seeds really does this) but won't take away or over power the traditional meaty filling.
Perfect Abe, beautiful crumb. I’ve actually never seen white rye in any stores around here, but I admit, I only go to one place to get rye and all they have is dark stoneground which is what I now use for my starter and the two rye breads I’ve baked. I have to try a different recipe with maybe 40% rye as Dan has baked up with great success to take more of the rye.
I think dark rye will have a different texture to this. Also caraway seeds are often used in rye breads because rye has a similar taste to caraway. I love caraway seeds but some people find them too strong. Perhaps that's the case for dark rye plus caraway. The white rye has a more mild flavour and creamy texture which really is very pleasant. I also like the bake I've just done because it reminds me of the rye breads I used to have as a child from a local bakery which did sell deli rye. This loaf will compliment a deli sandwich and not take away from the fillings.
And it looks as though you had rugby on the mind when you shaped it. These are the colors of the rye bread I grew up with, almost to a 'T'.
This is right up there with the best crumb I've seen on this CB.
Sticky dough is a challenge, that's for sure, but the shaping is aces.
The rugby shape is the silicone pouch. Can't fit a baking stone nor DO in my oven so some kind of form is needed. I prefer to use the Pullman however it needs replacing so out came my rarely used lekue hence the shape.
You and me both Alan. When I bit into this loaf memories came flooding back. This is what we often bought on a Sunday morning bakery shop to have for lunch. One can see why it goes with a deli sandwich. Very tasty but allows the meat to be the star of the show. Gets the saliva glands going which the meat fulfills.
White rye makes an odd dough but very pleasant outcome.
Lovely.
You know when you pick up a loaf after baking and tell by the lightness it's a success before cutting into it.
Ever since I was a kid, we used to get Melba Toast packaged in cellophane in lots of two. The crunch was irresistible and they were very dark in color. I assume they were made with rye grain.
This morning an accident on my part revealed a neat trick, Melba toast in the microwave. All of my breads are sliced very thinly on a food slicing machine and the frozen. This morning I took out 2 small frozen slices for my daily egg breakfast. I nuked them on ‘Defrost’ and set the weight to ‘.01’. I forgot there were two slices and only removed one. After breakfast I went back to warm up some coffee and noticed the last piece in the microwave. Voila, Melba Toast was born. It was excellent, and more shall be eaten in the future. SUPER Crunchy!
Cool discovery Dan, I’ve always loved Melba toast as well.
Well, my type 997 rye flour finally arrived - it was sent on the slow train. And here is today's bake, loosely based on David Snyder's recipe, with 40% rye, but in my case only half of it in the sour - in accordance with classical German/Austrian methodology. I also did a Detmolder 3 stage sour and reduced the IDY to 0.4%. Bulk and final proof were done at 30C, so things still moved pretty fast.
Flavour is mild but pleasant with a hint of sour. Of course I've cut into it too soon! Oh and I haven't got the dreaded dry crumb that has previously plagued my ryes.
Lance
Love your bake Lance. The crust looks great and the crumb is perfect. You also avoided the dreaded side splits yet had awesome ovenspring, I’d say you hit the fermentation and proof perfectly.
Benny
Lance, that’s a nice looking slice. I tend to gawk at this type of crumb rather than the currently prestigious IG offerings.
Any ideas why we both experienced dry crumb when most others didn’t? Both of our dry crumb problems have disappeared, but I have no idea why that is so.
Could be a good name for a musical duo, non?
Early days, but this bake used store bought rye flour, whereas my dry crumb was from home-milled. It's a long shot, but I did have a thought that rye might be especially sensitive to heat generated in the home mill. Perhaps I'll try your freezing tip next time, Danny.
Lance
You know, Lance. The last few bakes have taken a slightly different track. Typically I set the stones on my mill to ‘just kissing’. BUT for the last few bakes I considered starch damage, so the stones were set 3 or 4 click away from kissing. The thought was that by not grinding the grain so finely that the starch would be damaged less. The grain is always sifted using a 50 & 30 mesh. The second and last pass had the stones set to kissing. All of the grain was used in the dough.
This method will reduce some heat.
I still use my devised mechanical sifter for efficient and speedy operation. That idea is a keeper for me.
NOTE- IMO the bran adds a lot of flavor to the rye breads.
So when do you put the bran fraction back in Danny?
Lance
If the bran (particles that didn’t pass through the 20 mesh) is to be used in the dough, they are put in with the middlings for the second and final milling. The stones are set to touching for the last pass.
I’ve written about this before, I am unable to reduce the size of the bran to fine particles. Even tried a Mortar and Pestle.
I am starting to re-think milling for the finest flour. For example in the rye breads it may be that a coarser over all flour works well. maurizio wrote something to that affect a while back.
I've seen enough warnings about overheating that I've been concerned about it as of late too. I don't have much intuition for how much I should care about it, however. It would be great to devise some experiments to help measure the impact of overheated flour on final bakes. Have you come across anything like this?
The improvised sifter is great, btw. I was just thinking about DIY approaches to help automate all the manual shaking.
I play the Violin, Viola, piano and a bit of ukulele, what do you play Dan, we could be a band or sorts? LOL
These day, I play the radio. But many years back, the trumpet. Once upon a time I was the Drum Major.
Well we could certainly start a band then. ?
when the music started.
Haha, sorry Mini.
My music taste is certainly not everyone's cup of tea. I was formerly a house music DJ in my late teens / early twenties!
he's not keen on action films either. ..and he was being a bed hog. Now I can stretch out my legs. :)
You mean high stepping down the field with a baton leading the band. In many ways you still are that guy except the baton is made of dough.
I remember watching a Canadian viola player in a local village hall many years ago. Jaime RT she was called and she played a 5 string viola - a fiddola as she called it. Very enjoyable!
Lance
Violas are wonderful underappreciated instruments. I’ve never seen a five string viola before Lance, I’ll have to look at that. I haven’t played the viola in decades, but I started to play my violin again last year on and off. It is very hard to pick up again after such a long time not playing. My violin was made in London England in the 1700s, it deserves a better violinist than I to play it regularly.
Benny
one giant leap for bread-kind! ?It's beginning to look a lot like Snyder...?
That's one lovely crumb Lance.
I'm pleased my rye baking has made a bit of progress!
Lance
I was curious about this recently. I've been using David Snyder's formula as a point of departure for whole grain bakes with 40% rye. I have tried a simple 60/40 flour blend and used it uniformly in the sour and final mix. My current thought has been to follow the approach of these deli ryes, allocating all of the rye to the levain/starter/sour, since it seems effective in this role (the microbes love it), and it seems hepful to save the wheat for gluten development in the final mix (this may be more important for whole grains). The underlying assumption is that the gluten will be compromised more in the extended sour fermentation than the final mix or autolyse/saltolyse, and that plays less of a structural role in loaf form (oven spring, etc). I was curious if there are reasons why one would want to deviate from this strategy and allocate some percentage of wheat to the sour. From your comment I assume this is common in German/Austrian breads. If I have that correct, Do you know the reason for this? Perhaps the flavor is noticeably different with a higher percentage of the longer fermented wheat?
Here is the table of percentages I used. Source here.
I think it's all about getting the correct amount of acidity into the final dough. Possibly with the American deli rye recipes, the sour isn't as fully developed and so it is permissible to use all the rye in the sour.
Lance
A scald for some or all of the rye? It seems to bring out the best in rye. And if adding in some malt, and/or herbs and spices, include that in the scald too!
Worth a try.
I was considering doing a scalded rye bread for the CB. But I think all recipes for scalded rye breads I found were quite different from deli style, with (nearly) all rye flour. So maybe it would work fine to use a scald in this sort of bread, but I'd rather see one somewhere first :)
Or if we expand the CB to properly all-rye breads, I'm happy to just bake a Borodisnky or some other traditional recipe, been a while since I've baked it :)
Are suggestions but all rye breads are worth an entry on the community bake. Although taking one of the three recipes and giving it your own twist would also be interesting! Making it your own. My other idea is to toast the caraway seeds and grind them.
Scalds are for texture and will bring out more sweetness in the bread. Adding the malt and toasted caraway will make it even more complex.
Whatever you choose Ilya will be well received.
I tried to grind the seeds (without toasting), but they turned out to be remarkably hard, I couldn't do much to them by hand with a pestle&mortar. I'm sure an electric grinder will manage, of course.
and caraway. The seeds are so hard they will frost a plastic cover, permanently. Several ways to attack caraway is to place in a microwave bowl, add water to cover and bring water to a boil to soften, cool then grind. Or use a hammer on the seeds but make a cloth ring around them on the board or you will have them all over the kitchen. :)
When I grind caraway dry, I grind much more than I need because I don't want to do it often. I prefer to buy it ground.
But I have successfully ground them together with some malted rye grains. Guess I tricked my coffee grinder.
got a pepper mill filled with caroway. A bit quieter than the hammer but the neighbors are used to me pounding schnitzels.
Hi Alfanso. Nice bakes and happy holiday time.
I recently did this what they call in German Mischbrot.
50% wole wheat and 50% dark rey.
I let it bulk rise on room temp for about 8 ouhrs and put it in the fridge for a other 24 ouhrs.
DB, that is an interesting bake. AND 100% whole grain! The scoring is also nice. Looks like a great way to prevent rye blowouts.
Did you mill the flour?
Was the flour 100% extraction.
Is 100% ectracted and bought in from our local mill.
Once again we learn the the seemingly impossible, IS POSSIBLE :-)
Half of the flour is whole rye (a stickt mess) and the other half of the flour is whole grain wheat. WOW!
It looks like it Final Proofed in a banneton. Is that correct?
It is impossible to shape like we normally do. I just form it like it wash a lump of clay ?
DB was it proofed in a banneton?
In the fridge eas it proofed in a banneton.
In the fridge was it proofed in a banneton.
What's the temperature in the refrigerator?
The temp is about 4 degrees C 39 degrees F.
Nice bake dbazuin, very impressive crumb for 100% whole grain. I also like your scoring it is original.
Benny
The smell and taste is amazing.
I was inspired by this video and https://youtu.be/l9g4AI_z3uY
This looks nice. I'm always interested to see these whole grain bakes.
A compilation of all rye bakes produced during the CB can be SEEN HERE.
Bake #6
A few tweaks from the last 3 bakes that used Hamelman’s 40% Rye formula.
Taste -
The sesame seeds added slightly to the texture and flavor. The cocoa affected the color much more than the flavor. The bread darkened a little more and you had to really search to find any additional chocolate flavor.
Update - the bread is about 48 hr old and the flavor has definitely ramped up. It is my best tasting rye to date.
Texture -
The crust was only slightly thick, a good thing. The crumb was moderately moist and the chew was moderately substantial. The sesame seeds added a slight crunch to the crumb. All in all, a nice eating experience.
The Braid -
The 5 strand braid required a delicate touch, but it was easily manageable. I was surprised! BUT, after the final proof some areas of the strands were showing signs of degradation. I think the proteolysis from the whole rye (100% e traction) was too much for the dough. The braid might work if either the rye was reduced to 30%, or the rye was sifted to reduced some of the bran (ash content). The breakdown of the dough also greatly reduced the oven spring in the braided loaf.
My 100% whole milled rye levains never exhibit a large rise. I think using all of the grain, the lack of gluten, and the coarser grind have an affect on that. At any rate it raising the breads very well.
The flour was purposely milled to reduce starch damage.
When I see the clean bowl below, I know things are going well. Especially when it comes to rye.
Dough was just shaped.
Dough after Final Proofing.
Despite what you might be seeing indicating some proteolysis in the braided loaf, I really think that it is really impressive that you were able to do a rye braided loaf. I’ve never seen that before, great challenge!
Benny
Benny, I did this in hopes of demonstrating how easily handled a 40% rye bread can be if the white flour is well developed before introducing the levain. At this time I am convinced that this is a worthy technique.
Well it totally impresses me Dan, you really have great braiding skills.
as pretty as a picture. What a beautiful pair of rye breads.
Braiding a 40% rye is impressive! And it's often challenging for the braids to keep when baking even with a bread flour dough. Your rye kept it's braid very well. I also like the more traditional rye shape with scoring and very good crumb.
Nice bakes. You certainly raised the bar with shaping for this CB. I have yet to try the technique. This one will get you far on the British Baking Show.
Danny, you have natural skills when it comes to plaiting (braiding). This and your challah before are so very well executed. Nice bake, interesting flavour choice, is this something you invented or is it more common?
What makes you think the cracking was proteolysis?
Michael, it looked to me like the dough was breaking down. What would be your best guess?
The image below shows the dough after about an hour and 15 min proofed at 72F.
Below is a closeup.
The flavor choice, be it good or bad was all mine. I am a huge fan of beer brewers Chocolate Malted Barley. This particular malt is not diastatic.
When I mentioned “diastatic” it made me think that the great majority of all rye bakes on the CB displayed absolutely no gumminess at all. That’s amazing... I’ve seen it so bad, it was hard to slide a serrated knife through the loaf.
”Danny, you have natural skills when it comes to plaiting (braiding).”
Thank God for any natural skill. Normally, I struggle for every baking skill. And don’t always succeed. The Lievito Madre is a great example. LOL
Pentosans of which rye is rich in, interfere with the gluten network, weakening the structure, notice how the breaking is occurring where there is the most physical tension.
I'm following up on this old-ish post in case anyone is interested. I baked the 40% Rye today and tried out Danny's technique of developing the gluten in the white flour first, then incorporating the rye sour. It took a long time for my mixer to thoroughly blend the two doughs and then one of the loaves broke down similarly to Dan's braided loaves. I don't recall this happening before and strongly suspect that the extra long mix caused the pentosans to misbehave. I could be wrong, but I think Dan only had this problem with his braided loaves. Possibly coincidence or possibly, as Michael suggested, it occurred at points of tension. Interesting to note that I made two loaves and it only happened to one of them, so maybe I shaped one tighter. Next time I make this bread, I'll mix it in the usual way and try to braid it, just to see what happens.
Just look at that braiding! I think the 5-strand braid is the prettiest one and you do it as well as I've ever seen it done.
Whatever caused the dough to break down at the center, I'm angry with it for marring your fine braid. What a great experiment. The technique warrants further testing, so I may join in the fun after my holiday baking wraps up.
Many worthwhile takeaways from this CB. Thanks to all for the learning experience!
–AG
Finally clearing out my freezer of the ryes I had made when the CB first initiated, I was ready for something else, and the other day I made Richard Bertinet's version of stollen. Much moister than Peter Reinhardt's version, I think this one is the keeper. And then back to bread! So why not another rye?, he asks.
This is one of the three ryes that I posted in the accompanying Blog, also linked to at the top of the initial CB post. At 25% rye this is the same percent of rye as Eric Hanner's. And while fairly sticky to French Fold at the outset, calms down over the course of 4 letter folds 20 min apart, a total of 80 min to BF. 40 French Folds, a 5 minute rest and a final 40 FFs were all that was necessary. The couche barely needed to be floured. I switched out the AP levain for a rye levain, my rye levain from the previous bakes was still peppy enough to do a 1 stage build.
Just for fun I decided on baguettes of 200g, 300g and 400g, and a braid of 300g. Just for fun, you see.
Edit:
The 200g ficelle was gobbled up in no time flat yesterday, and the 400g was given away, leaving the 300g baguette to be attacked for this morning's toast.
Ring out the old and ring in the new. A mixed breakfast plate of the last of the previous bake and the mid-sized baguette. Tasted side by side, the 40% (or is it 44%) rye exhibits significantly more rye flavor than the 25% rye baguette, and also has the sour notes. The 25% rye baguette is devoid of that deep rye flavor but still has a quite pleasing taste.
Wow now I can say I’ve seen two braided ryes, This must be some sort of new bread category now!
Beautiful baggies Alan with your trademark ears and shaping.
I hope you post your Stollen somewhere as well, I’d love to see it.
Benny
The plan was to take the final 3 100g strands and form knot rolls but at the last minute...Not in the same universe as Dan's Delight, just something to pass the time and give it a go.
The stollen came out así así, pretty darned good but a learning experience to be improved upon in the coming days. Too much frangipane filling was oozing out of the sides and the bars of marzipan were not a worthy addition for us. Stay tuna-ed.
thanks, Alan
The colour of that crust looks very inviting and it looks like it has a crispy crust too! I love seeds in bread (be it caraway, fennel or any other) and seeing them scattered on top is very inviting. Excellent as always!
always a favorite in my rotation and a comfortable bake for me with reliable results. I'd never made a 200g ficelle before, and it seems to be the perfect size for a slender "French" baguette-like sandwich. And pretty simple to execute, including getting some fine grigne.
Thanks, Alan
These are among the most excellent of you eye appealing bakes. Calling senior Floyd ! hows the crumb on these beauties ?
I don't think it is easy to compare a batard crumb and baguette crumb for rye so easily.
These bake up like this every time, similar to a fat handful of other baguettes that I do with consistent results.
thanks, Alan
... of rye baguettes. Way back when, my mom used to get these skinny rye loaves called "cocktail rye" and she would serve it at parties with all the other appetizers. People could top them with cured meats or whatever, but she'd always spread a few tiny slices with cold butter and sprinkle them with kosher salt – her version of a finishing salt. People gobbled that stuff up. These baguettes put that stuff to shame. I love the shiny mahogany crust! Can't wait to see the crumb.
The shiny is the result of applying David Snyder's version of the cornstarch slathering both pre and post bake.
I still see those cellophane packaged cocktail ryes on grocery shelves occasionally, but for the most part they are likely relegated to a bygone era.
thanks, Alan
Haha, cocktail rye was craptastic. Or maybe it was just crap. I can't believe it still exists. It should be relegated to a bygone dumpster. But the cold butter and a few grains of smoked Malden salt on top? Yeah, that part might still be happening.
Your baguettes, on the other hand, look incredible... I showed the photos to my husband and he requested some STAT. He's going to have to wait till New Years, or at least next week. I'm anxious to try it. Thanks for sharing your formula.
Only you could have done that. I am impressed with the shaping and scoring of the rye dough. Those would make excellent melba toast.
it's because no one else is dopey enough to also do it. I was pleased that the ficelle scored so well, having never made a scrawny baton like that before. It might be Melba Toast if they were forgotten on an upper rack in the oven.
Lovely crumb Alan, beautiful bakes.
Benny
Hi Alan, I just mixed the first levain build for your Faux Jewish Rye Baguettes, which I have on tap for tomorrow. Because I'm not much of a French folder, I plan to mix the dough in my Ankarsrum and was wondering what dough consistency to shoot for. I initially assumed you want something close to a typical deli rye dough, but I then realized that 200 French folds would probably develop a pretty strong gluten. Figured I better ask.
Baguettes have never been my strong suit, but I'm excited to give this formula a whirl. Maybe your rye formula will be my "gateway baguette." Thanks for your help.
with the exception of a few doughs including these high rye% doughs of late. I've also mended my ways in terms of French Folds, thanks to suggestions and experimentations within the Baguette CB over the Summer. And I should have therefore amended the instruction on FFs in the formula.
These days my FFs on this bread, are now in the 40 FFs, 5 min rest, 40 FFs range. The dough will be a bit on the sticky side both before and after the 5 min rest, which I would also suggest for a machine mix. As with higher rye% doughs you'll want a decent gluten development to subsidize the lack of the gluten in the rye flour. That comes naturally, as a good portion of the gluten development is going to happen during the bulk ferment as well. As I do my Letter Folds on the wet counter top rather than in a bowl, I can tell you that the dough already has a lot of elasticity 20 minutes into the BF at the first LF.
One of the oddities of this dough is how much that stickiness disappears during bulk ferment, to the point where a well seasoned couche needs little flour to prevent sticking.
I generally don't shape after BF, but retard the dough for hours, pull it to divide and shape, and then place the couched dough back into retard for a few more hours. The dough comes out of retard almost immediately before placing on the baking peel, so there is no final proof other than the time spent in retard.
Once this dough has cooled down it becomes really easy to pre-shape and shape, a very compliant partner in the process.
I have to add, that I really don't think much about gluten development, don't have much of a game plan to achieve it, and it just happens for me by following these same general steps I outline above. Never do float tests or windowpanes either. So I'm a rather poor coach to give a definitive on the level of gluten development. But I can say that I can FF pretty quickly, giving a mixer a run for it's money on first and perhaps on second speed.
The bread has a pleasant rye flavor, but will fall short of the 40% and up range we've seen elsewhere in this CB.
If you're interested enough or bored enough, I created a PDF which follows the journeys of 4 baguette bakers during the baguette CB. You might want to give a peek to see the individual progress of the four, two of whom had just about no baguette experience when the CB started. It can be found here. Always happy to welcome another baguetteer into the brigade!