Hey TFL long time no talk.
So listen,
I still don't get it.
I always try adding starter and salt to the top of the autolyse and mixing it all with my hand. It doesn't mix - there are these long braids or snakes of thick dough mixed in with the liquidy starter and it just doesn't get incorporated. My dough doesn't have any smoothness to it when I mix it.
I can knead the crap out of it to get it smoother, but it doesn't really work, I just end up with a lumpy dough with no strength. The nice smoothness of the autolyse is lost and I end up with a rough mess that still has lumps of starter and salt hidden in the folds.
It is at the point where I prefer to just not do an autolyse at all because it's easier to get a consistent result.
But the crumb and crust I sometimes get with autolyse is so much more luscious. I want it. But I don't understand it.
Should I opt for Forkish pincer method? That looks scary, I don't like the idea of cutting the dough all up like that.
But idk. Please help!
of the starter to blend easier but a major change and help might be to wait when adding salt until the starter and dough is nicely kneaded together. Salt tightens protein bonds quickly and could interfere in mixing when added too soon. You will also get more fun time playing in the dough when it is so nice and stretchy. :). It is a good feel and sticky too. Remember the feel of it, can remind you sometime when you forget to add the salt.
Try it and see if it helps.
I really appreciated this comment and have been trying to make use of it and other comments in this thread. I've been really busy and meaning to thank you but haven't had the time.
I think mixing was the missing link in my bread journey, I am getting such beautiful loaves now. So thank you !
My understanding is that the whole autolyse thing was developed with stiff starter/preferment in mind. And this makes perfect sense too. Consider a typical pre-"artisan" bread with 65% hydration. If you make it using 20% of prefermented flour at 100% hydration you've taken 20% of water out of the recipe, leaving the potential autolyse at 45/80 = 56% hydration. So you end up with autolyse that does not work, because you can't hydrate your flour properly, and then have to mix very stiff dough with liquid levain which is, indeed, an absolute PITA, even with a machine. And this is how Hamelman-style autolyse, which is really just a short fermentation without salt added came to be.
So, the way I see it, your options are 1. Switch to stiff levain 2. Do a faux autolyse with levain in it 3. Autolyse only a part of the flour - that makes particular sense for 50/50 WW/AP breads, for example 4. Forgo autolyse altogether 5. Get a mixer.
you just gave me a light-bulb moment. Thank you!
Carole
Thank you. This is really useful information. An under-discussed topic for sure.
Don't be afraid to cut the dough.
this is one of the steps that french artisan using for manual kneading and it's called Decoupage
cutting the dough to a number of pieces and pushing it over to the other side of the kneading through.
you wont believe it until you try it, but it will give more strength to your dough.
Yes, thank you! It really does work.
What I've started doing is to take my autolyse dough and adding the starter and sprinkling the salt over that, rolling up the whole sheet of dough into a cylinder, and chopping it up with a bench scraper, folding it up again, chopping it again, and then transitioning to a knead. It really works well and doesn't destroy the dough.
You are having difficulty mixing the autolyse (flour and water) with the starter and salt, is this correct? What formula or method are you using?
I routinely mix a 100% hydration poolish with dry ingredients + water. It starts coarse and poorly mixed. Through a series of stretch-folds over 3 hours, the dough becomes well mixed and homogeneous. The final baked product is uniform. The base method I use is Tom Cat's Semolina Filone from this site, with modifications.
Is using a stretch-fold mixing and kneading process an option for you? What final product are you striving for?