Yesterday I did the 2nd part of my experiment to see how degree of proof affects the crumb. First part was done using 4 deg C final proof – here is the link
http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/57400/degree-proof-retarding-4-deg-c-experiment
Now part 2 is a repeat but using a warm over night proof. Well, warm proof is a bit of a challenge – my proposal was to do it at about 8 deg C. Forecast overnight temperature was to be 5 deg C, a bit cooler than planned, but inside I though ok, it will be a few degrees warmer. So here goes.
Method and formula are exactly the same as part 1. I added an extra 30 g water. I only made enough dough to do 4 x 400 g loaves as I decided not to do the 120 minute bench proof. I started 2 hours later in the day so that I would do the shaping and bench proof after dinner when temperatures were dropping.
So 4 loaves preshaped (actually ended up at 450 g each) and left for 30 minutes, final shape and bench rest for 0, 30, 60 & 90 minutes. Kitchen temperature was 21 – 22 deg C throughout. As I placed shaped dough into my conservatory the temperature was 12 deg C - at the start of the 0 bench proof @ 7:30 pm. By 9 pm it was 11 deg C, 10 pm it was 10 deg C, 2:30 am it was 8 deg C and at 6:15 this morning it was 6 – 7 deg C. Outside it was a toasty 3.5 deg C!!
Pre bake photos:
0 bench rest
30 minutes bench rest
60 minutes bench rest (is that overproof? Some degassing when I scored
90 minute bench rest (definite degassing when I scored.)
These were baked side by side in 2 DO at 240 deg C convection for 11 minutes lid on, 12 minutes lid off. Internal temperature was 208 deg F at least at end.
First set of loaves – 0 bench rest & 30 minutes. Loaves have flattened, spread out a bit but not much in length. Oven spring, ok not too bad
Second set of loaves – 60 minutes & 90 minutes. Definitely flatter. Loaves have spread lengthways and only a bit of oven spring.
I also made up a small batch (same formula) to see how different the oven spring/crumb would be if I did 60 & 90 minute bench proofs, with dough constrained in my small bannetons, then overnight retard in the fridge. These loaves were 550 grams each.
60 minute bench proof, pre back
90 minutes bench proof, prebake
These are looking much better. They were baked 15 minutes lid on @ 240 deg C and 15 mins lid off.
Now if I compare to the warm proofed ones (the cold proof is about 100 g more dough but still..)
Wow! huge difference in oven spring
Now 90 minutes comparison. warm proof is definitely flatter
I was sitting across the room and glanced at the kitchen, had to laugh as it is so obvious.
Crumb shots will come as we eat them.
Conclusion so far - don't think I like warm proof overnight, will stick to my cold overnight proof. Just took the last of part 1 out of freezer (90 minutes) and when comparing size and shape of loaves there is not much difference. I also realise that my choice of warm proof spot was a bit dodgy - I don't have a proofer but this was a warmer proof than the fridge, even if the temperature was not ideal to start with, and that is probably why some overproofed, but it has shown me a few things. Homebakers must often come up with a work around.
Anyway, love your feedback on this and the other post. The final crumb shot for part one will pop up shortly.
Leslie
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and those loaves look so similar when my fridge was 7Cish and I had many loaves looking like some of those Leslie! At that time I also let the bulk go too long I think, which made it even worse! Long bulk and warm fridge...overproofed loaves for me....
You are amazing pulling this off and I am also experimenting with how the choice of bannetons affects the rise and the crumb...
If I understand correctly, so far some bench rest and then into a cold fridge seems to be the better way to go, isn't it?
It is funny how you have all those books but just take time to re-visit and absorb...and this week I re-visited a book called Sourdough by Martin Field from Illebrod bakery AND in his book he recommends to have the dough sitting for quite some time in the bannetons proofing at room temp and then into a cold fridge where the dough does not rise anymore apart from cooling down. He also stresses the relationship between the degree of bulk rise which then will require less proofing in the basket...before going into the fridge.
He mentions approx. 1 hour in the basket, if the dough rose more than 30% and that normally 1 1/2 and 2 hours are fine before going into the cold fridge!
He says that IF YOU MISS the dough rising altogether before putting into cold fridge THEN to do this before baking and get some rise....
Just thought I share this...as just looked at this book again more carefully....
I now have to go back to your post and have a look what you said about the amount of bulk rise and how this then relates to what he has said about his approx. timing guidelines... :D Kat
but then lost it. I am having a brain freeze now! will rewite later... sorry, sometimes ipads are soooo frustrating.
Leslie
and I know all about brain freezes too! :D
was to see if I could get better structure with bench rests before retarding, and then this one with the final proof at a slightly warmer temperature, I was aiming for about 8°c. Of course the ambient was very not controllable, so I guess overall it might have been an average 8-9°c. while the loaves are definitely edible and will taste ok, I am guessing the crumb won’t be as I want. overproofing was always on the cards. I guess too, my experimental design was a bit flawed too, but still it was a good learning process.
I was really happy with the appearance of the banneton/4°c retarded loaves so I guess that is a good part.
Interesting that Martin Field suggests the bench proof. It will take about 10 days for us to work through the loaves, hubby’s appetite is still awol. I wonder what the final comparisons will be...
Thanks Kat
Leslie
I am starting from what I hope is the worst, working backwards to the start, lol.
The loaf is not yet fully defrosted, but crumb is even and fine. If you compare it to its equal in the 4 deg C proof, it is much flatter and much less open.
60 minute bench proof
30 minutes bench proof
no bench proof
That is now the series completed. Not sure what it all means. Life has got in the way, so I need to sit and look at it when I can. My feeling still is short bench proof after final shape followed by overnight retard has given me the best crumb.
LEslie
It seems obvious, from viewing the images of your proofed and slashed doughs that they evolve drastically downhill from 0-90 minute proof. No proof being the best, and 90 minutes the worst. I make this judgement based upon the insides of the scored doughs and also the inflated or deflated look of the top of the skins.
Question - is it possible that the doughs over fermented during the BF phase?
The results may be surprising after the crumb shots become available. But as of now with the information available, this is my best guess.
What are your thoughts?
Dan
”for those that experiment, failure at one or more extremes is a desired goal”. For comparison test to be successful they should be pushed to failure...
I have just gone back to my notes and I see that the total bulk ferment , from end of initial slap and folds to pre shape was 4 hours. I used a straight sided container once I had finished my coil folds, marked approx 1/3 more in height. Once the dough had just about reached this point I preshaped. Now I don’t know for sure how much the dough had increased by the end of the coil folds so I will try and note this in my next bake...
Looking at the pre bake photos closely, I think they all show some signs of overproofing just to varying degrees. When I go back to Part 1 of this experiment and look at pre bake photos the part 1 photos just don’t seem to show such obvious over proofing signs. I am curious about the crumb and we will see what that tells us.
Thanks Dan, any input is always welcome. there is still so much to learn ?
Leslie
It doesn’t seem like the BF went over if you stopped it at 1/3 rise. But as we discussed, your doughs don’t act anything like mine. I can easily go 8-10 hours @ 52F (12C) with my dough falling ar scoring like yours. Mine typically don’t get the large gas pockets like yours :-(
I have to think that individual starters behave differently. I wished I could come up with a way to test this out. I tried comparative test over the last year using starters from prominent and consistently successful bakers to compare against mine. But I consistently find that very soon after I start refreshing the new starters they become indistinguishable from mine. At this time I believe that the feed, water, environment and schedule affect a starter much more than origin or species of yeast/LAB. I know that sounds sacrilegious, and the statement is born from unscientific experience.
Yes, I am familiar with Puratos Sourdough Library, but I haven’t treated my guest starters like they do. They use the feed for refresh from the actual place of origin. I also wonder if the climate control is set to match the climate of origin. Since, it is now commonly accepted that the microbes are derived from the feed (flour and/or whole grain), I think the food supply has a huge affect on the characteristics of the starter. But these thoughts come from someone who bakes in isolation. It would be nice if I lived near a group of avid SD bakers.
Oh! Then again - the NZ water... :-)
Dan
I dunno about the water, your latest breads are just gorgeous. I too bake in isolation of sorts, but this website makes it feel as if we are all nearby. Must admit would love to bake with others and get to actually see and feel their dough at different stages.
Leslie
and no bench proof crumb photos above. Definitely a more open crumb in the no bench proof. It seems to me that minimal bench proof gives the better result.
Leslie