Today's Vermont Sourdough came out better than the last. I tried to be brave and really work the slashes and I think they're better but need work. It made me a wreck because I thought the whole thing would collapse. They didn't and next time I will cut deeper. I was really happy with the crumb this time.
Vermont SourdoughVermont The bread did not get a dark crust like last time probably because I put it in a cooler oven this time. 460º then down to 450º. Also I let the loaves rise 2 1/2 hrs. till they were light and puffy but still (I hoped) had more room to grow and they did once they hit the oven. I thank zolablue for that. This bread is so delicious it's my new favorite. I'm going to make it again for friends on Tuesday. I made today's bread to give away and as you can see I cut them in two but the breads going to my sister and she doesn't care. I had to see inside, right?
I hope many of you try this, it's an easy one. Also, like I said I added the salt along with the other ingredients in the final dough and there's no problem that I can detect.
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I forgot to say that I did not spray the finished loaves with water and I did not spray or add any water to the oven. I was being a real rebel today. I think I mentioned that I used Hodgson's Rye and KA all purpose flour. In the levain I used 1 oz. of my refreshed (that day) sourdough starter and I have no clue about its hydration %. Hope you'll try this.
weavershouse
weavershouse,
I must be the only one on TFL site that hasn't tried the Vermont Sourdough recipe. The link to the recipe above doesn't work for me. I get a page but not the actual recipe. Do you have it in text or a link with your refinements that I might find? I like the rugged nature of the loaves. It looks like a blend of AP and WW and maybe rye?
Thanks weavershouse, your work is always so well done!
Eric
Weavershouse, the loaves you pictured on the the other thread were beautiful but these are even better! The slashes look perfect to me. I hope your sister appreciates it! This bread is my new favorite basic sourdough too.
Susanfnp
Thank you so much, Weavershouse. Did you use a mixer? Also, do you bake on a stone? Hate to bother you with so many questions but what do you use to slash - I think yours look perfect? Guess I will be adding another book to the collection, A
Wowsa, that is beeeoootiful bread! That crust is simply amazing, beautiful big grigne from great slashing, gorgeous crumb - just wonderful looking loaves! Isn't it a trip to get them to come out like that.
I think this is really a good tasting recipe as well. I mentioned on the other thread I finally baked something from Silverton's book which was the Country White. While the loaves came out so beautiful I felt the bread was a bit bland compared to Vermont sourdough. I know I won't repeat that Silverton recipe. But I will make this one again.
You really did good, Weavershouse! :o)
Annie, I don't have a mixer, I let the loaves rise on their own piece of parchment and bake them on a stone. I used my bread knife to make the slash. And you can ask any question you want and I'll try my best to answer.
I have two more batches retarding in the fridge. I thought I'd try it. I promise no more pictures of Vermont Sourdough but I'll let you know what I think of the overnight retarding. I probably shouldn't be trying it a new way because I plan to take them to a get together tomorrow and I hope I won't be sorry I didn't stick to a proven way. We'll see. Thanks again. weavershouse
>Oh dear, there really should be some sort of therapy for this obsession! A.<
It's called the fresh loaf!
I had two batches in the fridge. One was in 16 hours and one was in 8 hours. The 8 hour loaf rose more than the other. You might think the 16 hour batch overproofed but when it came out of the fridge it didn't come back when poked till an hour or more later so I don't think so. Who knows. I'm sure my friends will love them without even looking at them. They're just happy to have homemade bread. None of the 10 of them ever come to THE FRESH LOAF so they don't know what we know :D
I know that some among us look at baking bread at home as a science and I do to a point but I think there are so many variables that we'll never get it right all the time....I say just make bread. Know the basic rules and use them but be ready for the surprises. I got four of them today. weavershouse
I have loved using this method but in discovering my refrigerator was running far too cold I can see why I had troubles gauging warm up the next day and proper proofing (still my problem but getting better). I planned to try this with the Vermont sourdough later this week as it now appears, finally (just yesterday), the darn fridge was fixed - keeping fingers crossed. I'm going to be very anxious to try Columbia again using this method to compare but anyway I have a couple questions.
How long did you leave the loaves out the next day before baking? Is it possible that your loaves were actually overproofed? Again, so confusing, but in one of her books Glezer says often the next day they only need about an hour to warm up and sometimes can be baked still cold. It depends on the softness of the initial dough. That could be a reason they did not rise as much.
Another thing, do you have a thermometer to test your refrigerator? When I finally bought mine a couple weeks ago I was horrified to see how cold it was keeping food. Or rather freezing food. I am so anal about keeping thermometers in my ovens I don't know why I had not done this before. So could it be that perhaps your loaves were still too cold? I know I jumped the gun with some Columbia one day when I was taking it to a dinenr party. The loaves tasted fabulous but they did not rise as much and also were not as dark as usual.
At any rate now I feel I'll have way more control with overnight retardation which I love to use so if I get the Vermont sourdough made this week I'll let you know how it compares to when I retard the Columbia.
ZB..I think you might be right about the fridge being too cold. We have a little house attached to ours that we sometimes rent out and since no one is in there now I used the refridgerator over there. When the bread was taken out this morning it was COLD. I waited an hour and a half and put it in the 500º oven and turned down to 450. I baked the second batch right after the first came out and it did better. I'm going to check the temp in that fridge. I love the overnight retarding too. It's so fun to just take the loaves out and bake with all the work behind me. I'll try this again. Let us know how yours goes.
Annie, rev yourself up and try again. Maybe it was just that the dough was too wet and some support would have helped. I didn't use support with this batch and maybe it needed it because they had to sit overnight. I don't think two folds would have hurt your dough. How did it look after you folded the second time? If it was too wet maybe a little flour and another fold would have firmed it up. I hope you'll try, try again even though you have some other great hobbies.
xma....I used my serrated bread knife and I cut deep, a little more than 1/2". Made me a wreck! But now I'm brave. Well, almost brave :D. I was surprised to see the floured tops because I didn't see any flour on the loaves when they went in the oven.
weavershouse
I must be the only one on TFL that hasn't tried this and I can't get the recipe link to work. Thank you,
Eric
Vermont Sourdough – Hamelman
Bread, Sourdough
Yield: 2 Loaves
Ingredients
LIQUID-LEVAIN BUILD
150 grams Bread flour
188 grams Water
30 Mature culture (liquid)
FINAL DOUGH
750 grams Bread flour
100 grams Whole-rye flour
462 grams Water
19 grams Salt
338 Liquid levain (all less 30 g)
Directions
1. LIQUID LEVAIN:
Make the final build 12 to 16 hours before the final mix, and let stand in a covered container at about 21 °C/70°F
2. MIXING: Add all the ingredients to the mixing bowl, including the levain, but not the salt. In a spiral mixer, mix on first speed just until the ingredients are incorporated into a shaggy mass. Correct the hydration as necessary Cover the bowl with plastic and let stand for an autolyse phase of 20 to 60 minutes. At the end of the autolyse, sprinkle the salt over the surface of the dough, and finish mixing on second speed for 1 1/2 to 2 minutes. The dough should have a medium consistency. Desired dough temperature: 22 °C/ 76°F
3. BULK FERMENTATION: 2 1/2 hours.
4. FOLDING: Fold the dough either once (after 1 1/4) hours) or twice (at 50-minute intervals), depending on dough strength.
5. DIVIDING AND SHAPING: Divide the dough into 1.5-pound pieces shape round or oblong.
6. FINAL FERMENTATION: Approximately 2 to 2 1/2 hours at 22 °C/76° F (alternatively, retard for up to 8 hours at 10 °C/50 °F, or up to 18 hours about 5,5 °C/42 °F).
7. BAKING: With normal steam, 240 °C/460 °F for 40 to 45 minutes. More often than not, this bread is retarded before the bake. The result is a loaf with moderate tanginess and a sturdy crust that conveys a lot of bread flavor.
See this post:
http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/11400/hamelman039s-vermont-sourdough#comment-62790
Thanks ZB, I appreciate that. I've been wanting to do a smallish bread that has a powerful flavor.
Eric
Zolablue and weavershouse, you two are tag teaming me! Thanks WH for thinking about me. I wanted to get a batch started tonight.
Eric
Since I'm new to sourdough, the types of directives in recipes that confuse me are sones that talk about cultures. The phrase in this recipe that confuses me is
"30 Mature culture (liquid). what exactly does that refer to? I'm guessing a sourdough starter, but with all the discussions I've read on the hydrations of starters - how would I know, in this particular recipe - how liquidy (?) the starter should be?
when speaking of the final build I am assuming this means once you have made the liquid levain and then mixed it with the final dough - that is the final build?
this seems to all be over my head and I need to start out at a much lower level providing there is one. I've used bigas, and poolish, left dough to mature overnight in the fridge etc, but never worked with a starter or levain or that type of thing. I'm making a starter now using the directions on the wildyeast blog, but I don't know what to do with it after the weeks time is up other than feed it.
I get the "take some out and replace it with an equal amount". that seems to be about as much as my old brain comprehends.
For the record: I build computers, troubleshoot software, fly airplanes (even work on them sometimes) , work on technical stuff all the time, but for some reason - this whole sourdough thing eludes me............................... :-) Am I just doing the engineer thing and overthinking everything?
-Susie
Susie, you about to go where others have gone before. Don't worry, it's not really rocket science! :) But it does take an introduction to other aspects of the whole wonderful world of levain breads aka sourdough. You've made your starter, right? And you keep it in the fridge, refreshing on a regular schedule? This is your mother starter. The French sometimes call it la mère," sometimes "le chef." Why, I don't know.
The next area of confusion now seems to be what does it mean to "build the culture," a process also known as "elaborating." I LOVE Jeffrey Hamelman's description in his book Bread. I love his book period. But what I found so charming about his description of elaboration was when he described how to take a small bit of your mother starter and feed it until you have enough to make bread.
The build should be done in a couple of stages, he said, because <here's where I smile> how would we humans feel if we had to eat a whole day's food at once? Then he explains the math to do 2 feedings and ensure you end up with the right amount of sourdough starting with about 1T of your culture. Get his book or find another description of the process. It's not hard, just lengthy to go into here.
Another area of confusion is the hydration. What's a liquid starter? What's a stiff one? It's easy once you know. Basically, a liquid culture is around 125% hydration. One caveat: we're talking bakers' percentages here. Every ingredient is considered in relation to the flour (e.g. 100 g flour with 125 g water = 125% hydration). A stiff starter is usually in the range of 60% hydration.
Whether your mother starter is stiff or liquid is almost a non-issue. For one thing, you can convert it from one to the other. For another, the small amount of mother starter in a home baker's bread recipe, usually around 1T, is not going to affect the final hydration of your dough to any great extent. And you'll create a liquid or a stiff sourdough automatically just by following the bread recipe! The decision is usually made for you by the list of ingredients.
When I was starting with sourdough, I found the language so confusing. The key for me was realizing the difference between the mother starter aka "mature culture" and the levain aka sourdough starter that I needed to build for each and every recipe using only a portion of my mature culture. Perhaps that will be the key for you, too.
In any case, I hope my reply has been helpful. With your background, I have no doubt that once you locate the pieces of the puzzle missing for you, you'll have this aced in no time at all.
to apprentice:
I sure hope you're right about my catching on. You're info does make sense to me and does answer some of my questions.
I guess I need to just dive in and do it. I think, having raised 5 kids and starving most of the time, I have a strong adversion to wasting anything, so attempting something that ends up being thrown out is a horrible thing. :-) I have to keep telling myself - I have 4 dogs - they love my mistakes! They seem to be carbaholics.
I'm going out and about today, maybe I'll stop in at the bookstore and look for the book you suggested. Getting a good cup of coffee and sitting in the bookstore reading is a nice way to spend some time and forget about the worries of the day.
thank you,
-Susie