July 20, 2024 - 6:01pm
![Doc.Dough's picture Doc.Dough's picture](https://www.thefreshloaf.com/files/styles/thumbnail/public/pictures/picture-33284-1599272018.jpg?itok=mDANW0ak)
Window pane for pizza dough?
I have occasionally attempted to make pizza dough and while it is OK it is not great. I am trying again and would like some input from the collective wisdom of the crowd. When making dough using Italian 00 pizza flour (Caputo Blue Label 00 flour) there is no added amylase in the flour and no ascorbic acid either. And I find that it does not seem to form a window pane at either end of the mixing time spectrum.
A. should it form a window pane?
B. If it should, how to I get there?
C. If it does not, then what is the end point for mixing?
I make 300 gr dough balls, fairly straight forward, I usually use:
175 gr flour, mostly 00 but I usually add about 15 gr of either rye or whole wheat for some extra flavour
125 gr of water
3.5 gr salt
I would usually use maybe 100 gr of starter so I would reduce the flour and water by 50 gr each,
3 stretch and folds, leave it for maybe an hour then ball it up and into the fridge. I leave it for a couple of days or more if you want, keep an eye on it, after a day or two it should be doing well, if it gets to much air in it just re-ball it.
Warm it up for an hour or two before making the pie and enjoy. I have great luck with this recipie.
So, for my thin crust NY pizza, ( notice I did not say NY style) I like to think, mine is true to form, NYC pizza. The quintessential street slice if you will.
Enough of blowing my own horn. Let's get down to the brass tacks.
First the composition.
1. High gluten flour (All Trump's/ King Arthur Sir Lacealot) I am not sure of the gluten in the fancy Italian style pizza flours, because I don't use them. I also add a small percentage of semolina.
2. Commercial yeast. I save the natural yeast for other endeavors.
3. Low hydration. I use 65%. This can be even lower or higher depending on the pizziolo.
4. Even though my American flour is already malted I add a tiny bit of diastatic barley malt.
5. Salt is a normal 2%
6 2% olive 🫒 oil
6. The street slice pie is large. A minimum of 18" - 20". While I would love to make 20" pies, my home oven limits me to 18". For an 18" pie my dough balls are 560g.
The modus operandi
I start with a one hour water& flour autolysis. After which all the other ingredients, save the oil are mixed in. Once the dough clears the sides of the bowl the oil is added slowly. From here the dough is mixed on Bosch Universal speed #2 just until the oil is incorporated. I am not looking to build a lot of strength up front. The extendability will come from a long cold ferment. By the end of which the pizza dough will definitely stretch to a window pane. Since I make large freezer batches, this is my procedure.
1. Straight out of the mixer the dough is weighted and portioned.
2. The dough balls are wrapped and placed directly into the freezer.
3. The dough is defrosted/ fermented cold for 48 hours. On pizza day the dough balls is allowed to riise to room temperature for about an hour, give or take.
4. By this time I am able to easy hand stretch a translucent thin skin.
In conclusion, Let me repete, It is neither necessary or recommend to build the dough strength up front. This step is accomplished by time and temperature.
Best regards,
Will F
The Roadside Pie King
Also known as:
The Brooklyn Maltese
You are the master pie guy in my eyes. This is very helpful.
Quick question though.... How much yeast?
Mary
That is quite a complement. Here is the latest rendition of my NY pizza dough formula. This makes six 18" dough balls. Since it is written with bakers % it is easy to scale, down or up. If you need help with scaling or dough ball weight for different size pies, just ask. Smile.
I am not expert and have had many more frustrations than successes with pizza (I think more to do with how to use a home oven for pizza), but IMHO, what is crucial with pizza is to have a very active dough. As you don't have a proving stage as such, the dough must be super active before baking.
So don't get too caught up with kneading up-front. Mix the flour and water and yeast (or SD starter) and after about 40min rest, just start with regular stretch and folds every half an hour or so and then some letter folds as the dough takes shape more and you should be OK. When the dough is at the right level of activity, it will almost bubble up as you are trying to do the letter folds.
No window pane for me.
I have made many pizzas and enjoy them. I use a tender dough recipe and the flavor and texture are great. Not the same as NY thin crust. It's not my goal.
150g Caputo 00
150g Caputo Semolina Rimacinata
180g water
25g-30g olive oil
1/8 cup nonfat milk powder
6g salt
1 envelope commercial yeast
Mix, knead, form into a ball, place in a bowl covered with plastic wrap, let ferment in the fridge overnight. Form into a 14" thin round, add toppings, bake for ~12-15 minutes at 500F.
The durum should improve the extensibility but you get no gluten either, also should tear easily, what is the reason to use it? Ahh - but you don't pull a window pane so you don't need extensibility or gluten development. I guess you are saying that you don't need either for NY pizza. I am shooting for a Neopolitan style which I think wants enough gluten development to make a thin crust that stretches without tearing.
Whoa, of course durum has gluten. It's less potent and perhaps more extensible than for standard wheats, but it's definitely got gluten. Not all of its high protein level is in the gluten, though.
To stretch out a good pizza crust you need lots of extensibility without tearing. He doesn't pull a window pane because he knows he doesn't need to, not because he's happy to go with poor gluten development. A long cold stay in the fridge can give you that extensibility.
TomP
Enjoy.
https://youtube.com/shorts/KJwzO808uVs?si=4_chLS0zOey0HIY8
Beautiful Will! The master at work!
I am loving that dough. Now, what was the path to getting dough that will do that? What flour, what hydration, %IDY, %salt, combine, autolyse for V minutes, BF at room temp with folds at interevals of Y minutes for a total time of Z hrs, cold ferment at X°F for aa hours. return to room temp and let sit for bb hours before stretching.
As others have mentioned it isn’t necessary to have your pizza dough window pane. Generally I mix (by hand) let autolyse for 20 minutes, knead/stretch and folds until the dough is able to create a smooth skin when balled taut. About an hour total. Portioned, then into an oiled container and refrigerated.
Since you’re using Caputo 00, for me, how well it performs depends a lot on how you’re baking. I use Caputo 00 when doing Neapolitan style at high heat in my WFO @ 63% hydration. These cook in 60-90 seconds. For lower temps I use KABF or KAAP @ 66% hydration. These are baked at 550° in my home oven with a steel and take 5 minutes. A couple of recent examples: Margherita - Caputo 00 in WFO, NH style White Clam in home oven.
IMG_0715.jpeg
IMG_0582.jpeg
As others have mentioned it isn’t necessary to have your pizza dough window pane. Generally I mix (by hand) let autolyse for 20 minutes, knead/stretch and folds until the dough is able to create a smooth skin when balled taut. About an hour total. Portioned, then into an oiled container and refrigerated.
Since you’re using Caputo 00, for me, how well it performs depends a lot on how you’re baking. I use Caputo 00 when doing Neapolitan style at high heat in my WFO @ 63% hydration. These cook in 60-90 seconds. For lower temps I use KABF or KAAP @ 66% hydration. These are baked at 550° in my home oven with a steel and take 5 minutes. A couple of recent examples: Margherita - Caputo 00 in WFO, NH style White Clam in home oven.
IMG_0715.jpeg
IMG_0582.jpeg
I'll take three slices of each, and a large tap beer, servers choice.
Smile
Kind regards,
Will F.
Your process produces a dough that will pull a nice window pane at least between 60% and 70% hydration. I will make the next batch at 63% as you suggest. Thanks for the insights. This site is a true font of knowledge, held in a distributed memory with a dependable ability to recall and document success. One of the best things TFL does for us collectively.![](/files/u33284/70%25%20Hydration%20Caputto%2000.jpeg)
60% Hydration Caputto Blue Bag 00.jpeg