Red Rye Malt
"The Rye Baker" calls for this in a few of the formulas.. The book has a photo of a reddish power; a web search shows mainly bags of what look like whole dried rye berries. There are also various extracts, diastatic and non-diastatic malts, usually barley but occasionally rye.
From older TFL posts about red rye malt, I think I have the idea but I would appreciate a sanity check from people familiar with it and the breads that use it.
- Toast the whole grains of malted rye to red or black (for the black rye malt formulas)
- Grind them in a spice grinder
At the barber shop the other day, one of the barbers offered another a croissant, the discussion moved to other breads. My barber, an Asian immigrant*, said that she really liked the Finnish rye her mother-in-law had served her. When I got home, I looked up the Finnish rye in "The Rye Baker" and started researching red rye malt. I hadn't been planning to make Borodinsky but so many people here rave about it, I'll give it a try once I get red rye malt figured out.
Thanks for your help/clarifications, and any recommendations for an online source for rye malt.
* My only purpose in mentioning my barber's ethnicity is to share the "What a country!" joy about an Asian immigrant with a Finnish husband loving a rye bread in southern California (in fact, in Stanley Ginsburg's home town).
Toast the whole grains of malted rye to red or black (for the black rye malt formulas)Remember, the key is to get it right, whether you make it yourself or buy it ready-made.
Yippee
So if I buy rye malt, then I have to soak it for a couple of days, ferment it, then dry it, and then grind it? No roasting required after the drying?
If you're buying red rye malt (assuming it's ground, as I've never bought it), you can use it as is.
However, if you're making it
from scratchusing rye malt, you'll need to go through the soaking, fermenting, and drying process.Yippee
soak - ferment - dry, then grind.
It doesn't sound too difficult but it really stretches out the time line.
I've encountered is that making a large batch at once is prone to mold during soaking and fermenting. Because of this, I usually make only 250 grams at a time. You don't need much in a loaf; even 250 grams can go a long way.
I store the whole grain red rye malt in the freezer and only grind what I need right before use.
Yippee
I have made bread out of Stan's book several years ago that called for red ye malt. I was able to source from a local brewery supply store. It was the grain, not powder, so had to be milled. Hope that helps.
Janice
Did you have to soak - ferment - dry the stuff you got before grinding for the bread?
Or did you just roast and grind it?
Thanks
Here are my notes from that bake: Toasted the rye malt grain for 10 minutes at 400F; and was concerned at how crunchy it was so ran it through the mill to crack it and then soaked in equal weight of water for about an hour - subtracting the water from the water in the final mix. In the future I wouldn't crack the grain again. After soaking it was fine.
I took Stan's Rye Bakers Tour to Latvia and Finland. This was my attempt to re-create a bread we had in Finland at Olle Lindholm's Backers Bakeri. It was his version of Archipelago Bread (which pretty much every bakery offers) and his was by far the best version and he was very generous in sharing his percentages with us.
Hope this helps
Janice
No grinding needed, like the photo in the book?
I didn't grind after soaking, just a very coarse grind in the mill after toasting and don't think that was necessary. Though reading the following comments about crushing that might be the more traditional method.
Here are all the gory details of making red malt powder, both commercially and at home -
https://www.beetsandbones.com/russian-red-rye-malt-solod/
I can't vouch for the information, you will have to see for yourself.
I think I read at The Rye Baker website that the author uses Fawcett Crystal Red Rye Malt, sold to home brewers. It may not be perfect or exactly authentic, but I'm not gonna do my own.
Too much for me, too.
so their end product is not red rye malt.
The process of germinating rye grains to make rye malt is distinct from the subsequent fermentation of the malt, which results in red rye malt, also known as "fermented rye malt."
Yippee
If you mean the Beets and Bones link I posted, yes, there is fermentation step:
RusBrot has a detailed preparation of solod (link) that differs from the B&B prep. The fermentation step is conducted by inoculating with CLAS to provide the LAB (he also says regular SD will probably work, but at lower temperature). The B&B procedure relies on spontaneous LAB and there may not be sufficient time allotted for development.
👋👋👋
The step referred to as fermentation may be so called but it is debatable whether this goal is the result of a biological transformation... The desired compound Melanoidin, is the result of a Maillard reaction. The same debate existed with black garlic which was assumed to be a fermentation process but more likely is the result of a very slow Maillard reaction.
Is it possible that the fermentation enhances the Maillard reaction? The lower pH after fermentation would be disadvantageous, but could more reducing sugars or amino acids be available after the fermentation step?
It is well understood that fermentation removes reducing (simple) sugars from the environment. That should be unambiguous.
But also Nitrogen assimilation might result in less amino acids too.
Generally in SD fermentations, yeasts uptake amino acids while LAB prefer peptides (oligomers of amino acids).
However, viewed as a system these transformations aren't going anywhere... So if there is some fermentation occurring, I'm sure it is beneficial in some sense...
But as a goal, I would debate how much of it, is in part due to fermentation considering the desired outputs...
When I suggested more sugars and amino acids, it was me thinking out loud and making a SWAG. And you're right, fermentation would be expected to reduce the amount of sugar present. However, I did some digging into the Russian process and found info that I can't readily explain as I don't have a deep biochemistry background. This is from a reference provided by Andrey (aka RusBrot):
This must be fermentation by some organism other than our typical SD culture. And Andrey replicates a facsimile of solod by using CLAS, which is absent any yeast activity.
Do you have an idea what's occurring here?
Is this just acid hydrolysis of starch and protein to increase the sugar and amino acid content?
I think the fermentation described is enzymatic hydrolysis using the malt enzymes. Then that would indeed increase the free sugars and amino acids, which then react and produce the compunds that give the colour and falvour upon heating.
Which would mean that there is no need for LABs or other microorganisms, but perhaps inoculation with CLAS in Andrey's method prevents growth of mold...
Thanks for the info, Ilya. I guessed there must be something else happening besides "normal" fermentation.This has prompted more questions:
The final dried fermented rye malt has an acidic characteristic; can this be explained by the increase in free amino acid content?
Also, when rye flour and pale rye malt are heated in a scald at 65 °C, does the scald normally have an increase in acids as well as sugars? I've never checked the pH of a scald after completion. Or is it the extended time at 65 °C that is necessary to lower the pH?
Fermented rye malt is a fascinating and wonderful material!
Good point, I guess during the malting and heating there is inevitably bacterial fermentation happening too...
Actually, now I am remembering that I read somewhere that in the traditional process the heating happens spontaneously from the fermentation activity, since the piles of rye malt are huge and retain the heat.
I know I'm veering slightly off-topic, but I have read about thermophilic sourdough starters on Sergey's and Andrey's blogs that are sometimes used in Baltic and Belarusian rye breads.. These starters are active at temperatures >50 °C. I suppose some of these bacteria might be in the malt and perform the fermentation.
@mwilson—
Are familiar with melanoidin malt? I have been trying to find info on the process for making this barley malt but have had no luck. I wondered how (or if) the process is different from the fermented rye malt discussed here.
No I'm not, malts aren't exactly my field... I'm a wine guy! :)
I'm confident that Melanoidins are the result of Maillard reactions in these cases. But whether some form of fermentation plays a role in forming precursor compounds I don't know. Coffee beans are a primary source of Melanoidins and in their processing a fermentation step also occurs.
A search for Melanoidin Malt:
"Melanoidin malt is a highly kilned malt that imparts a reddish brown color and a distinct flavor to beer. It is made by kilning malt at high temperatures for extended periods of time."
https://www.coalitionbrewing.com/what-is-melanoidin-in-beer/
I'm just wondering if a process similar to making Sauermalz in Germany is used. It seems that the green malt is held at 45-48C for 2 days to acidify with the native lactic acid bacteria (or possibly with added lactics?).
https://archiv.hobbybrauer.de/modules/name/eBoard/file/viewthread/thread/35.html#pid78
https://hobbybrauer.de/forum/wiki/doku.php/sauermalz
Lance
I believe kilned malt instead of green malt is used to make Sauermalz (acidulated malt). The fermented malt is then dried again. There are some similarities in the two processes, though.
https://beerandbrewing.com/dictionary/A01b9mKR1M/
The Reinheitsgebot would prevent the use of any added lactic acid in the process, but the sour wort could be saved and used in brewing.
I had thought that kilned malt would be practically sterile after kilning, given the temperature used, but surprisingly, it is not. This article gives some useful info:
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/279904990_Microflora_during_malting_of_barley_Overview_and_impact_on_malt_quality
Lance
Thanks for posting the article. I've always wondered how the enzymes and microbes survive the kilning step for diastatic malts. The article did show how much activity remains, but I'm still scratching my head how heating a malt >70 °C in a scald will inactivate it, but drying in a kiln at even higher temperatures does not. Maybe water activity?
I've done a fair amount of chasing this "rabbit" down various holes. The type of "red rye malt" to be used depends on the ethnic origin of the bread.
Good luck!
I found this image of the Tuoppi Kaljamallas (rye malt) that is used in Finnish sahti (beer) and in bread:
IMG_20200526_103829-632x892.jpg
It looks a little darker than crystal rye malt. I have not found a North American source for this brand.
Strange looking lumps, like it's chopped?
Lance
The description (translated from Finnish) says it is crushed. Home brew suppliers here in the US offer malts as either whole grain or crushed, sometimes even double-crushed. I have only purchased whole malt so I don't know what the crushed grain looks like.
Do you grind the crushed rye malt or use as-is (after toasting)?
Thanks for laying out the different types very clearly.
I have only purchased whole crystal rye. The crystal rye was coarsely ground in a spice grinder to approximate the kaljamallas photo for use in the Finnish bread. Solod comes ground but not to a powder; it's like coarse salt.
And I believe on that page he said it could be used as the "red rye malt" in his recipes. I tried that and it worked pretty well. You will also see "solod" (fermented rye malt) mentioned in this context but it may not be a 1:1 substitute for "red rye malt" as written in his recipes though it may be closer to what's used in the original ones. See this post of mine about my experience with using solod in one of his recipes. Without having access to the original ingredients, the original recipes can only be approximated. They can still be delicious even if somewhat different.
One surprise for me in Ginsberg's book and website is that he never discusses the differences in non-diastatic rye malts. There are the crystal/caramel rye malts used in brewing, Baltic/Russian fermented rye malt (solod), and toasted rye malt like he prepares in his book. Maybe he thought it would be too confusing or the editor wanted it cut, but he could have included a paragraph or two describing the differences. The flavor of solod seems essential for the Baltic/Russian breads that use it; I don't think there is a good substitute.
You are correct that the solod is not appropriate for a Finnish-style rye bread. If you note my post above, the crystal rye is the closest to the Finnish kaljamallas, but it is still not an exact match. His toasted red rye malt is most similar to the Finnish malt.
I bought some rye malt from a brewing company to use in rye bread. It is labeled 'Breiss Rye Malt' Spicy, Rye Lovibond 3.7.
The only information on the Lovibond scale is relating to the colour of a liquid made with this malt. Could anyone tell me whether this would be diastatic or non-diastatic and what 'spicy' refers to?
The company information only relates to brewing. Patsy
The Briess rye malt is diastatic. Here is a snapshot of the spec sheet:
The diastatic power is less than a barley malt, maybe about half as strong. As far as color goes, most malts that are <10° Lovibond will be diastatic. The use of 'spicy' is common in descriptions of rye in brewing. It's not the same as spicy food; it's probably more like a bright flavor.
Thank you so much useful information. I will try baking with this malt scalded with boiling wate to inactivate the enzyme.
Patsy
I live in Denmark and bake ryebread every week as it is a stable here.
I tried to find the red fermented malt but it is not available here. Instead I use a number of different malt for my breads. I like to vary the taste by adding different malt types from one week to the next.
Curious to know which malts you preferred in your breads and what your regular go to rye bread recipe is like?
-Jon
I like to use Thomas Fawcett Amber malt, Westermann Cara Aroma, Cararye and Low Color Choko and have also found a Chocolate Rye malt that is nice tasting. I use about 5% of the Chocolate malts and 8-10% of the Amber varieties. I use the lighter malts Pale Rye and Gyrup Cara in wheat bread.
Mette
I'll be in Copenhagen in August (in a tour group, but they allow us to forage for lunch), can you recommend some bakeries and bread types I should try?
Also, would you kindly explain how you use those malts in bread baking? Do they come as powders, ready to add to the flours, or do you have to roast and/or grind them first?
BTW the whirlwind tour visits Denmark - Sweden - Norway - Finland - Estonia - Latvia - Lithuania (and our flights coming and going layover in Brussels). If you or anyone else has recommendations for bakeries or breads in the main cities in these countries, I would be grateful if you would share them.
Thanks everyone for the information.
Here is sunny California I often breakfast on my home-baked rye and Norwegian lox or smoked Riga sprats. I'm looking forward to enjoying the local products on local breads.
Hi Neland,
Living in Denmark, could you please direct us to a good traditional rugbrød recipe? It's OK if the recipe is written in Danish language. Thanks!
This one is made with wheat sourdough starter: https://simpelsurdej.dk/da/blogs/nyheder/rugbrod-med-surdej-ny-forbedret-version
This one is very nice:
https://www.cathrinebrandt.dk/softkerne-rugbroed-med-surdej/
Cathrine Brandt has several recipes on her website you can try.
And I have made a recipe:
https://www.mettes-opskrifter.dk/sourdough-ryebread-with-a-soft-delicious-crumb/
Thank you so much for sharing these recipes, much appreciated. Your rye recipe sounds very interesting, made a note to give it a try in the future. I might have trouble finding coarse rye flour for the scald, I've only got fine flours. Perhaps rye kernels coarsely chopped in a blade coffee grinder will do the trick?I use this in pumpernickel/coarse rye flour formulas.
Fairhaven Mills Coarse Rye Flour - product at Amazon
Fairhaven Mills Store
Fairhaven Mill Tour Photos - I took the King Arthur whole grains baking class at their site at the WSU Breadlab. One day before class we got a tour of Fairhaven Mills.
I'm no expert but it seems to work well in formulas from "Bread" and "The Rye Baker" that call for coarse rye flour/meal or pumpernickel. It isn't as coarse as meal but the results are tasty, if not with the fully coarse texture.
I have used a finely ground rye/ coarse ground rye/ chopped rye kernels mixed with finer ground rye flour. The finer the flour i milled the drier the scald and the drier mor dens crumb.
No mater what you choose to use it will work.
My since is also that rye fra North America isn't as thirsty as rye from Denmark, but it's a little Ng time since I lived in the US I could be wrong.