The Fresh Loaf

A Community of Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts.

the grind's the thing

squattercity's picture
squattercity

the grind's the thing

So there's this deli rye I bake regularly (a 45% rye spin on Ilya Flyamer's fantastic formula.) It's always been super tasty & dependable. And it was very flexible, working just as well if I let the levain sit for 8 hours or 18.

But, since the start of the year, I began to have problems with it: the dough suddenly got way stickier and harder to manage. It felt seriously over-hydrated -- though the hydration remained stable at about 70%. It also started to ferment much, much quicker. Oven spring declined. My crusts got thicker and tougher and had less of a caramelized quality. And the loaves felt heavy when I pulled them from the oven.

The bread still tasted quite good. But it wasn't as good as it had been.

The flours were the same brands. The water came from the same tap. The temperature and humidity were roughly the same. The oven hasn't changed. Nor the dutch ovens. The process was the same, too. I played around with dropping the percentage of rye flour from 45% to 40% and dropping the amount of water -- but the dough was still super-sticky. Two weeks ago, I found I could hardly shape it because it oozed all over the place once I removed my hands, no matter how much stitching I tried to do.

Last week, I realized that there was one thing that seemed to have changed -- but it was so subtle I thought I might have been imagining it. The whole rye flour I use seemed quite a bit finer than it used to be. So I emailed Farmer Ground Flour. And they responded that, yes, I could very well be seeing a difference. It wasn't deliberate, but different local ryes take to grinding different ways. What's more, they brought a new stone into use in their mill in 2023 -- and though it hasn't yet been used for rye, it could have meant that the older stones had maintained a finer grind for rye.

This sparked a theory: I read in one of dabrownman's posts from a few years back that a fine grind can damage rye's starch granules, making it easier to break down the starches into sugars and tending to cut the protein bonds in gluten. Essentially, I posited, the finer grind had led my dough to have a kind-of amylase attack, causing it to lose structure.

So I made a new loaf, being careful not to let the preferment sit more than 8 hours and keeping the bulk & proof on the short side. And it worked: the dough was no longer super sticky, I could shape it quite easily, and the final bread had a thin, crunchy crust and felt light in my hands when I pulled it from the oven this morning.

The grind changed -- and I had to learn how to change with it.

Rob

Ilya Flyamer's picture
Ilya Flyamer

Cool thank you managed to solve this issue!

I think your idea sounds very plausible. Did you see that the preferment is already wetter than it used to be, before mixing the final dough?

 

squattercity's picture
squattercity

come to think of it, yes

tpassin's picture
tpassin

This might be related.  I've been experimenting with atta flour.  The specific product is a Golden Temple durum with added bran.  This leaves it open, at least to me, if the durum was stone-ground or roller-milled.  I think it's the latter.  At any rate, atta flour is always said to 1) be very fine, and 2) to have a high level of damaged starch. 

I found that even the bran of this flour is very fine - it passes through a #40 screen, and is removed by a #50 screen.  The manufacturer doesn't mention anything about starch but extra fine milling seems to cause more damaged starch, according to some reading I've done.

However that is, I made a loaf of sourdough with 50% of this atta and 50% King Arthur bread flour.  It had a fairly high hydration, close to 80%.  This dough would never retain its elasticity.  After each S&F it would become somewhat elastic, and during each rest it would give up that springiness and ooze sideways.  It was also quite sticky.  In the end I had to use a loaf pan.

I used the same flour mix for another loaf but with a much lower hydration of around 62% (including the starter).  This made a dry dough (no surprise) and this dough never lost its elasticity during rest periods.  It remained dramatically different from the first throughout its development, and had no trouble proofing free-standing.

It's easy for me to believe that more starch damage could lead to very different dough properties.

TomP

squattercity's picture
squattercity

interesting, Tom. 

Did you try a middle ground -- 70% hydration, a bit more aggressive kneading to develop gluten, and strict time limits on fermentation. At 50% bread flour, I wonder if you could get a reasonably structured loaf as long as you don't let the levain hang on the counter too long or the bulk & proof go too far.

With the more roughly ground rye, I was able to mix it 45% rye/30% bread flour/25% whole wheat flour and still get solid shape & oven spring.

Rob

tpassin's picture
tpassin

Did you try a middle ground -- 70% hydration, a bit more aggressive kneading to develop gluten, and strict time limits on fermentation.

Not yet. The higher hydration I tried first was a kind of accident.  I kept adding water until all the flour seemed wet.  That turned out to be too much.  The second try I deliberately started out low and tried to forcibly incorporate all the flour by kneading.  That worked out well though the dough was very dry, almost in bagel territory.

Next time I'll shoot for a middle ground. What surprised me was how the high-hydration dough couldn't hold on to any elasticity.  It just leaked away after each S&F.  Even with glass bread with AP flour, that didn't happen. I could build up the elasticity bit by bit and it wouldn't all relax away.

I forgot to mention that I had sifted out the bran from the GT atta flour.  No more than 10% got screened out with my #50 screen.  Once I get this dough working well I will make a soaker of the bran and use that.

With the more roughly ground rye, I was able to mix it 45% rye/30% bread flour/25% whole wheat flour and still get solid shape & oven spring.

That shows an impressive skill level for sure.

squattercity's picture
squattercity

Today's 45% rye, made with tighter timings & after refreshing my starter twice

tpassin's picture
tpassin

Well now, anyone would be happy with that loaf!

squattercity's picture
squattercity

thanks, Tom. Life is good when the rye bread's good.