Folds - How Many and When
Sourdough formulas typically call for some folds during bulk fermentation to help build gluten dough strength. Three sets of folds are common, and sometimes you see even more.
Some formulas call for the folds at increasing intervals, eg, 30 - 90 - 120 minutes after the start of bulk fermentation; others recommend 3 sets of folds 30 minutes apart and then leaving the dough alone to finish fermenting.
Does anyone have any insights on which timing works better with which kinds of doughs, or temperature (eg, room temp or retarded in the fridge)? Or the minimum time needed between the last fold and dividing?
I usually go with folds at 30-60-120 minutes - stretch and fold, coil fold, and then a lamination fold, which seems to work fine with Hamelman's Workday 100% Whole Wheat, "Bread", 3rd ed. The formula says that no folds are needed, which is true of the base formula. But if I bump the hydration up from 80% to 85% (which the book suggests as an option), and add 15% walnuts (which my wife likes), I find that the folds help build a stronger dough, less likely to flatten out when baking.
I'm a once-a-weeker, alternating the 100% whole wheat with various ryes from "Bread" and "The Rye Baker". The rye formulas typically don't call for folds; the 20-40% of wheat flour (AP, bread flour, or whole wheat) in the rye breads gets enough structure during mixing and bulk fermentation.
Thanks for your insights.
Here's my 100% whole rye starter, Arye Melber, 8 hrs at room temp after refreshing: Rye Starter Photo
There are so many variables (inoculation, starter activity, temperature, hydration, flour characteristics, etc.) that I doubt whether a more precise rule of thumb is possible.
Thirty minute intervals give the dough time to relax between folds, which is one reason you see that timing. They also are far enough apart to see fermentation progress but not so far apart as to allow oversize bubbles to form. If temperatures are cooler or the starter isn’t very active, it might do to use longer intervals.
Which takes me back to what I said in the header: how frequently you fold, or how many times you fold, will ultimately be dictated by what the dough tells you.
Paul
My Spanish is OK, and I know a few inappropriate words in some other languages, but I haven't learned to interpret what the dough is trying to tell me. I suppose if it resembles a batter as much as a dough, it's time for more folds. Or if I lift the middle for a coil fold and all the dough comes up with the handful and there is none hanging down, then maybe it doesn't need that fold.
I think that the manner and timing of folding can vary all over the place, and should depend on the size of the mass of dough and how it feels. You want to get the dough to have good strength and extensibility when it's time to shape. It doesn't matter much how you get there.
To illustrate this variability, consider a commercial bakery, say Proof Loaf, where 25 pounds of dough ferment in a large plastic tub. The baker folds by doing coil folds. You can find videos on line showing this. It's about the only practical way this mass of dough can be folded by hand. Now let's look at me making basically the same recipe but in one small loaf having 300g of flour. I pick up the dough underneath the middle, as one does to start a coil fold, but the ball of dough comes right up without stretching because it doesn't weigh enough for the dough to drop and stretch down. I can't even do a coil fold. Instead, I end up stretching and folding between my two hands, up in the air. It works great. I could have pinned one end against the workbench and stretched it that way, too.
Assuming you are planning on a long bulk ferment, I don't think the exact timing matters either. Let's say you set the dough up with an initial S&F. Why would you need to do another one? Time will let the dough develop its gluten. Why not just leave it alone? Well, maybe you can. With some dough, I find that two S&F sessions will give me a ball of dough that is very tight and springy, and won't easily break. I won't touch that dough again until shaping time.
At shaping time, the dough probably will have relaxed too much to hold a loaf shape well. Then I will stretch it way up and work it hard to develop elasticity. You have to go by the behavior of the dough.
There is no harm in doing a S&F later in the bulk ferment, when the dough is gassier. As long as you are not so rough that you break down the pore structure, the dough will come back and rise faster than before, and it will have no trouble refilling with gas.
Even for a straight yeasted dough I will rest the dough for half an hour after mixing, then knead and stretch it. I will usually get in one more S&F session before the end of bulk ferment. Giving the dough that initial rest just makes everything easier. You don't have to withhold the salt, yeast, or levain. That rest will make your kneading fast and easy, the dough less sticky, and you can end the kneading with a few S&Fs.
My usual practice just now is to give a few S&F sessions at 30 - 45 minute intervals. But if I'm busy doing something else, I don't worry even if the next S&F is a couple of hours later. It will still work fine.
Have a conversation with the dough. Learn from the dough what it needs. Any recipe that specifies some particular kind of folding or S&F intervals, think of them as suggestions to get you started. Some ways will work better for some people, or for some hydrations, than others, and so on. Just think that the dough wants to get stretched enough by shaping time, and that it wants some amount of stretching (and relaxation) by then. That's all. Do it any way that works well for you.
Yes, there are special cases. If you want to get the dough into the refrigerator in an hour, then you only have an hour to develop the strength you want. But even then, gluten development will continue during the retardation. And if you want to make panettone, ignore everything I've just written!
[end rant]
TomP
Louis, just wanted to add that my normal loaf is 100% whole wheat home milled, usually around 90% hydration - I develop strength in a mixer, then rest and cover for 30 minutes and try a S & F. If it offers some resistance, i just do one, the overnight BF. If it stretches easily, I do another set, and again test. Just a data point of reference.
As above, I don't fully understand dough language very well. Hamelman's formula for 100% WW "Workday" bread says that you don't need any folds with the 12 hr bulk fermentation at 80% hydration. If I push the hydration to 85% for a more open crumb, I get the feeling that the dough is calling out for folds. The 30-60-90 has worked pretty well. Here it is, 85% hydration, weighed down by 15% walnuts, with 3 rounds of folds 100% Whole Wheat @85% hydration with 3 sets of folds
That's very good looking, that cross-section. Nice work. It seems to me that you understood the dough very well this time.
Today's (cooling now in the oven, turned off and open, in order to keep the crust crusty) isn't quite as nice, probably less than great scoring. But I have hopes for the crumb.
Blowing in the wind
So you're saying I should bake with convection turned on in the oven?
Did it
A. Make you smile
B Roll your eyes
If so, then my purpose was achieved.
I had and still have absolutely no idea what you meant by "blowing in the wind". As I thought about it, the idea of punning on convection baking occurred to me.
Did you mean to refer to cooling the bread in the open oven as "blowing in the wind"?
It's an old Bob Dylan song title. It's still famous in some circles.
I am familiar with the song, but I didn't see the connection with my post.
You Can Get It If You Really Want
I was just being silly. I hope you forgive me.
One of my favorites! Smile...
The harder they come