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Giorilli Panettone - my first sourdough panettone

gordybaker's picture
gordybaker

Giorilli Panettone - my first sourdough panettone

I have attempted baking panettone in the past with limited success. Out of three times, two were successful and with one the dough failed and turned into a cake batter. Two recipes that were successful, one was with commercial yeast and one with combo of commercial yeast and 100% hydration liquid starter.

Early November last year I decided to learn how to develop Lievito Madre stiff starter in order to bake a "real" panettone. I read as much as I could find on the subject including many recipes and discussions from this site, especially Michael W., joegranz, SueVT and any others I could find. I want to thank Michael and Joe for their gracious comments and advises they have given to me.

By the end of December I developed a decent stiff starter, meaning it was tripling by volume, the only measuring stick I had at the time. Shortly after I purchased a pH probe which helped tremendously in making some sense of what I was doing. At the same time I learned that developing LM is as much art as it is science. Different bakers applied different methods (sometimes even contradictory) to obtain the same excellent results. Everybody seamed to experience their fair share of failures, panettone baking is no joke!

What stuck with me the most was an Italian forum where one of the bakers in lively discussions presented his way of handling LM. The idea was simple: maintain dry LM with morning bagnetto followed with 1-2 refreshments followed with hot treatment @ 27-28 C and then 16-20 hr cold treatment at 16-17 C. The refreshment ratios are menaged based on pH reading at the end of each treatment. Fore example the first refreshment is 1:2:0.44. That is providing the pH is 3.8-3.9. If pH is higher then reduce the flour to maybe 1:1.8:0.44 (the value depends on how much is pH higher or lower then expected). The second refreshment is generally 1:1:0.44 but again flour ratio is adjusted depending on pH reading obtained at the end of the previous 4 hr cycle. At this point LM is either used to make the first dough or is refreshed 1:1:0.44 (again adjustable ratio depending on the last pH reading), wrapped and stored at 16-17C for 16-20 hrs.

I guess the basic premise is trying to manipulate LM feeding ratios in order to hit the targeted pH after each consecutive refreshment and all of that while maintaining strong LM leavening power with the dough tripling by volume in 3.5-4 hours. The last refreshment was targeted to hit pH 4.1 before making the first panettone dough or wrapping and storing overnight.

This is the strategy that I adopted myself and the only change I made is that I wrap the LM during the cool overnight treatment as oppose to just keeping it in a covered container.

After about a month of daily refreshment routine I felt I was getting a bit stuck not knowing what to do next. It felt as if I started running in circles. From what I learned I was getting some reasonably good pH readings and LM was for sure very lively and active. Shortly after, during the discussion exchange with JoeG. and his suggestion that I should try to bake with LM I developed and that way asses its quality I did just that: I baked the Giolli's recipe panettone. 

The flour I used was Boreal Organic Flour made by LA MEUNERIE MILANAISE INC. with 13.33% protein content.

It could be beginners luck (likely it is) but nevertheless it turned out great! It is beautifully fragrant, tender and tasty. Quite happy with my first sour dough based panettone!

This was my schedule:

9:30 am pH 4.17      1:1.5:0.40

1:30 pm pH 4.33      1:0.5:0.44  

5:00 pm pH 4.21.     1:0.8:0.44   

9:00 pm pH 4.18

I used my Ankarsrum mixer to mix the first dough in about 42 minutes. Everything went smooth, developed a good window pane. The only issue was incorporating the sugar into fairly dry first dough. I think that sugar drew water out of the dough which then with partially dissolved sugar coated the bottom of the bowl. The bowl side scraper didn't like that sticky coat and started binding and making screeching noise.  I think next time I will do sugar addition by hand. The pH of the first dough was 5.64.

The dough was kept at 24C overnight and it tripled in about 13 hours.  The pH was 4.18. Now this was waaaay off from what I read on these pages were it suppose to be about 5!? Scary...nah, "what you don't know can't hurt you":). Life is an adventure so I decided to continue and see what happens.

The second dough was a breeze to make. It gobbled up egg yolks and butter effortlessly and developed a good window pane. I was done in about 30 minutes but got concerned since the recipe called for 40-45 min. so I mixed another 5-8 minutes.

The only issue I had was during incorporating the eggs I noticed the dough temperature to be high (28C). I stopped the process and cooled the dough off in the fridge for 20-25 minutes to 22 C. The rest of egg yolk addition, butter, fruit and nuts went in without trouble. 

Next was 30 min dough rest, followed with dividing and 20 min rest, shaping and putting the dough in the molds. I think my final dough shaping can be much improved, but that is the story for another day.

The dough grew to about 1" from the mold edge in about 9 hours at 28C. It did not have pronounced dome shape which I blame on my sloppy shaping technique.

I baked two 750g panettone loaves at 350 F for 45 minutes.

The following are some of photos I took along the way:

First dough:

 

Second dough:

The big hole on the right was from the metal skewer that in panic I inserted too high from the bottom:

 

The Roadside Pie King's picture
The Roadside Pi...

Kudos to you for a beautiful perfect first attempt. The only downside, you will be hard pressed to surpass the sheer perfection of these panatone!

therearenotenoughnoodlesintheworld's picture
therearenotenou...

The challenge for home bakers is always consistency.  

I would be a very happy eater if I could repeat my best loafs and panettone at the drop of a hat.  Biscuits and cake not a problem...but yeast items...

gordybaker's picture
gordybaker

Thank you and I tend to agree with you! 

Abe's picture
Abe

I believe it is a far from easy recipe, it is your first sourdough panettone and it looks excellent. Very nice indeed! 

gordybaker's picture
gordybaker

Thank you! 

joegranz's picture
joegranz

One regret I have throughout my panettone learning was spending an enormous amount of time working on my LM without ever baking.  Glad you went for it and with a great result.

The PM management you mentioned is kind of what I do.  I feel like the more you approach LM maintenance from that perspective rather than just following a routine and hoping the LM will balance itself, the more success you have.

And now onto the next problem - primo acidification.  This seems to be everyone's "next problem" after realizing some success.  I've heard about this issue on virtually every site where panettone baking is discussed.  Luckly the bread usually still turns out delicious, and while Sue mentioned that some maestros/instructors say that pH values as low as 4.3 are acceptable (if I remember correctly), I can't help but wonder how much better the panettone would be without the primo acidification.  My best result so far was hitting pH 4.9, the two differences being the balance of my LM (which is always kind of a moving target) and using an autolyse for the primo.  I mixed all of the flour, water, and sugar for the autolyse but in the past I've also done flour, water, and eggs.

As for temp issues in the secondo, a lot of people put their primo in the fridge for an hour or so after it triples to bring the temp down in preparation for mixing.  I haven't done this yet because historically my primo is around 4.1 - 4.3 and I feel like I'm racing against the clock to mix the secondo before the primo goes any lower.

How did you feel your mixer handled the dough?  I have a love-hate relationship with my kitchen aid - without it, I couldn't dream of making panettone, yet every time I use it for panettone I want to take a sledgehammer to it 🤣.

Nice one though - looking forward to seeing more!

gordybaker's picture
gordybaker

Thank you Joe! If it was not for your little nudge I would have probably still obsessed about LM with no baking plans in sight. 

Will see how this PM maintenance strategy works in the long term, but for now I really like it. Just mixing the same ratios and expecting PM to turn balanced at some point did not sit well in my mind. Having a feedback in pH readings and making the feeding ratios adjustments accordingly made it lot more interesting and provided the subtle sense of control.

On my primo acidification I might have gotten a lucky pass this time, but will see what the future bakes will look like.

I think my mixer worked great for this dough! It took me a little while to get used to Ankarsrum mixer because everything about its operation felt odd at first, but slowly I am getting my mind around it and I like it a lot!

It doesn't like dry mixing as I described in adding the sugar portion to the primo, and for that reason I will likely add it by hand next time. Tomorrow I will try to replicate the same recipe again, fingers crossed!

 

 

therearenotenoughnoodlesintheworld's picture
therearenotenou...

Congratulations....That slice is stunning.

 

therearenotenoughnoodlesintheworld's picture
therearenotenou...

Just a P.S.   I don't know your shaping technique so excuse if the following is unwarranted.   

A little butter on your hands and the board can really assist in shaping these types of doughs.  If the panettone dough has any stickiness, it really assist in keeping/building tension on the surface. 

rondayvous's picture
rondayvous

I appreciate the dedication and effort it takes to produce a beautiful result like you achieved here. Great job.

SueVT's picture
SueVT

That's a very nice result for your first bake! Congratulations!! And, that was good advice from Joe, to go ahead and try a bake. Now you can enjoy the results.

Now you have a baseline, and each time you bake, you can alter one or two things to look for improvements. Your maintenance schedule is very like what several of us are doing. And yes, we all struggle with controlling acidity in the primo. I do think that with time your LM will improve and have less of this tendency. Some of the longer wrapped and bound cold storage periods between bakes are IMO actually good for the balance of the LM, and are sometimes referred to as "purifying". Tomorrow I am getting my LM out of storage to start a new cycle, and it's always interesting to see how it performs. The last couple of times, it amazed me with almost immediate strong activity.

If sugar addition is difficult in your mixer, you can mix the sugar in the water to dissolve before starting the primo, which also helps to avoid overheating the dough.

Cheers, Sue

gordybaker's picture
gordybaker

Thank you all for your kind words!

Sue VT I was thinking about dissolving the sugar in water as you suggested, but was a bit concerned if that would have a negative impact on gluten development?

I am curious at what cold temperature do you keep your LM wrapped and bound for prolonged periods and what is the longest time you would normally go with?

In about an hour I will be mixing primo for my next batch of Giorili panettone, I am curious to see how it will turn out this time.

Thanks, 

Gordan

SueVT's picture
SueVT

I have not had a problem with gluten development at all when dissolving sugar in the water. I suppose it might vary by recipe, and I have not made the Giorilli recipe in a long time... 

My cold fridge is kept at a very cold temperature, just a few degrees above freezing. And in fact I cannot store most vegetables in it because they might freeze. It has been about 4 weeks since I stored the LM I think, don't have my records here at the moment.. 

I hope this next batch turns out great!  -- Sue

gordybaker's picture
gordybaker

Thank you Sue! I did dissolve sugar in water for primo and it worked just fine, no issues at all.

Reading through many of your posts on discussions I learned about your practice of storing/resting LM in the fridge. After few months of daily refreshments I did 1:1.5:0.44, wrapped and bound my LM, left it at 16 C for 4 hours to gain some strength and then it went to the fridge. My fridge temp. is about 4-5 C. Will leave it there until some time next week.

Thanks again and I hope that your bake went well too!

SueVT's picture
SueVT

My LM just finished its first 24 hours out of (very cold) storage, results are good! It was pH 4.26 just out of storage. I gave it a sugared bagnetto, warm, and fed it 1:1:.38 (some water in the dough from the bagnetto also). Put in the mini cooler at 74F, just a neutral temp for the first 24 hours to see how it is doing. Rose quite dramatically, pH was 4.21 after 24 hours. 

I just fed it again and am holding it for another 24 before entering a baking cycle...

gordybaker's picture
gordybaker

It is interesting to see how porous LM cross section is! My LM looks almost solid when I unwrap and cut it. Will see how it will look after I keep it in a fridge for a week.

Your LM looks healthy and active, hope you have a good bake!

Gordan

mwilson's picture
mwilson

If possible, I always dissolve the sugar in the water first. It will save on mixing time and friction.

Doing this seems to aid gluten development because the sugar is already dissolved and there is less competition for water during mixing.

Sugar binds up about half its weight in water. Despite what we experience as hydration of the dough, flour only binds up roughly 30% of its weight in water to hydrate its soluble parts (flour is mostly insoluble). Forming a dough at this level of hydration might hardly be possible but when sugar is dissolved in the water it makes it easier for a dough to form at lower hydrations.

In terms of rheology, sugar behaves like water in dough, increasing flow (spread) and extensibility.

gordybaker's picture
gordybaker

Thank you I did dissolve sugar in water and it worked great! My understanding was that sugar along with fats and acids makes dough weaker because it impedes gluten development. However, my latest practical application and as you explained the underlying reasons worked just fine. 

mwilson's picture
mwilson

Echoing other comments, this is a great looking panettone, especially for a first bake. Well done!


Michael

gordybaker's picture
gordybaker

Thanks Michael, appreciate it!

Integralista's picture
Integralista

Man, that looks really gorgeous, and perfectly legitimate to be sold at €40/kg. It looks seriously good!

gordybaker's picture
gordybaker

Thank you for your comment! Ha, ha considering the amount of love, time and effort it takes to make it I am not sure I would sell it even at that price.

gordybaker's picture
gordybaker

After about a week I made my second attempt of the Giorilli recipe, it turned out amazing!

My LM is very active and as I said in my previous post it never fails to triple in 3.5-4 hrs at 27C. Since I started to use wrap and bind technique it improved even more. I can't quantify exact parameter that improved, but it just feels and looks better. It is not too soft nor sticky but pliable and easy to cut with knife almost as mozzarella cheese (talking about the texture only). I tried to taste it and at first it has a neutral taste and after little longer It reminds me of a hint of a sparkling wine.

My 3 refreshment ratios were as follows:

pH 4.1 -> bagnetto ->  1:1.7:0.40

pH 4.38 ->                    1:0.8:0.44  

pH 4.27->                     1:0.5:0.44 

pH 4.15 -> mixing primo

Primo was mixed in 39 minutes without any trouble, window pane turned out good. Since this time I dissolved sugar in water the mixer had easier time than in the previous batch.

Primo tripled in about 8.5 hours at 24-25 C, pH was 4.66. This improvement in pH reading compared to the first batch (pH 4.18) was logical since this time fermentation was 4.5 hours shorter.

Second dough was mixed in 38 minutes. I was little overconfidend I would say and was adding ingredients too fast. I noticed that half way through the butter addition. From there on I just let the mixer run until I was satisfied that everything was thoroughly absorbed before adding more. Even with all this trouble I still ended up running shorter time then the first batch or the recipe that called for 45-50 minutes mixing time. The window pane was solid and the dough was rested for 30 minutes.

Next I weighted the loaves, pre-shaped and rested for 35 minutes at 28C. This was followed with the final shaping which was much better and tighter then with the first batch. I filled the forms and proofed loaves at 28 C. They were ready for baking in 6 hours.

Baked for 45 minutes at 350F, inverted and stored overnight. 

The loaves look and taste great, just wonderful!

The following are some photos I took along the way:

SueVT's picture
SueVT

Sounds like everything went a little better with this batch, and the results are wonderful! I love the elongated openings! A very successful batch!

--Sue

gordybaker's picture
gordybaker

Thank you Sue! Yes it felt like just about everything went right and the lucky baking stars were aligned!

Gordan

zlarkins's picture
zlarkins

Hi all!

I'm trying the Giorilli recipe for the first time, after trying a few different recipes over the years. Can any of you clarify what he means when he says "Put the lievito, flour, and water in the mixer; after 15 minutes add the sugar." Does he intend for you to mix the PM, flour, and water in the mixer for 15 minutes, or simply let them sit together, unmixed, for that amount of time? I took the risk of mixing for 15 minutes. The first rise is in progress, and so far, so good, but I'd love clarification from anyone who can offer it!