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substitutions in bread machine book recipes
Hi all!
I got a new machine for Christmas, after my first machine finally started dying after 20+ years of use. Hubby thinks a bearing is going since it makes very loud noises during kneading.
So, I got a new one, and am about to start using it. The problem I am wrestling with now is that my old machine called for oil in all recipes, and the new one calls for butter. But, it also says to not use fresh dairy if using the delay start option. Ok, so can I use oil instead? Seriously - the booklet says nothing about what to do if you want to use the delay option! Bah!
So, I turned to the trusty internet to see if I could substitute oil for butter. The problem is, I am reading advice ranging from - sure, do a 1-1 substitution, to use 3/4 the amount of oil.
My new machine is the Cuisinart Compact Bread Machine, CBK 110. Does anyone here have experience using this machine, and successfully substituting oil for butter?
I am very grateful for any help anyone can offer! Thanks!!
If not already thought of - melt butter to a liquid - use same amount. Enjoy!
Hi! Thanks for the suggestion, I appreciate it, but the issue is not how to figure out how much to use, but rather whether or not a 1-1 substitution works. I read a website that said if the recipe calls for 1 T butter, to use 3/4 T oil. But, another that said if it calls for ! T butter, to use 1 T oil. I was hoping maybe someone had done the substitution and could tell me if it worked - sorry for not being clear as to what I was asking for!
C above. Enjoy!
See, my problem is that I want to use the delayed bake function, and the instructions with the machine say to not use fresh dairy if I use the delayed function. I find it annoying that they tell you that, and then do not offer alternatives - the instructions could easily say something about substitutions, but do not! Sigh.
Hi,
If I use oil then I do add it after the gluten is developed. I have not had any trouble with using a bit more of oil unless the hydration is so high that the dough cannot take any more liquid. But I guess, if you want to be safe, go with the 3/4 amount.
I also just ordered a new bread machine. My older Zojirushi is still working but I thought it might be handy to have another one in case the Zoji goes out.
I did quite a few doughs with butter in the Zoji and had no problems but I set the time for the bake.
Usually I let the dough rise 2 hrs, shape, and have a 1 hr final rise. Then bake.
I hope you have fun with your new machine!
Thanks for your reply! So, when is the gluten developed? Is the issue that using oil will make the dough too moist? Is that why some places say to use 3/4? I am probably overthinking this, but I hate to waste food, and am afraid that the result will be unpalatable.
I am having second thoughts about the new machine. I bought it because it said it would do loaves up to 2 pounds, which is what my old machine did, but I just compared the bread pans, and the new one is way smaller.
Thanks!
Hi,
I used to dread eating through another failed loaf but I love to experiment!
Now, I have a loaf baked in my Zoji which has 3 faults-too wet, went way past final rise and maybe over mixed, but I will eat past it since I know the "drill" well!
So, don't give up. There are so many "failures".
Is your hydration under 65% with the oil? In my limited experience, it will do ok.
Gluten is developing when the surface is shinier that it was before. That is subjective, but I am baking 100% freshly milled flour with water and starter (hold salt). I do see the glob of dough as a shaggy mass initially but it turns into a "shinier" ball as the machine mixes it. Try the "window pane" test. Let the mixing in the machine go for 15-20 min and then add your oil--this is for whole wheat. I am not experienced with refined white flour.
I don't know the way your machine has allotted time to each of its phases. Can you send that?
My routine bake consists of (roughly) 30 min kneading (500 gr freshly milled whole grain flour) -80% hydration, 2hr bulk rise at 30C, shape, and about 45-60 min final rise. Sometimes there is oil (I count it as liquid if it is oil). Then in it goes into the Zoji bake chamber for about 55 min bake. Ending temp 205-208F.
Take some pictures of each stage and send them. Make smaller loaves if you are unsure of your process!
Looking forward to your work.
PS The delay function warns against dairy for spoilage of eggs and milk? oil is not going to spoil.
So, let me start at the end. It says "Do not use perishable ingredients such as milk, eggs, cheese, and yogurt with the Delay start function." So, technically, it does not mention butter, and I know that a great debate rages as to whether or not you can leave it out of the fridge, but I am a 'fraidy cat when it comes to spoiled food. Because oil will not spoil is exactly why I want to use it!
I'm old enough to remember the days when we kneaded bread by hand - no mixers or bead machines, so I am pretty sure I understand what you are saying about the shininess of the surface.
For the whole wheat cycle, and a 2 lb loaf, it says 4:10 total. The only other times it lists in the manual are for add-ins, after 50 minutes, and remove paddle after 1:35 elapsed from start. My old machine had a chart that showed each cycle length, but not this new one. It says that it shows the current function on the LCD as knead, rise, bake, and keep warm. It also says most breads do 2 knead cycles, but does not say which. sigh.
So, I am chickening out, and plan to make pizza crust tomorrow since that is just the dough cycle. I also plan to use the recipe from my old machine, since it made just enough for two pizzas. The recipe in the new book makes only enough for one crust. I am wary of the difference in the bread pan sizes, but the booklet says as long as I stay under 4.5 cups of flour total, it is ok. The old recipe calls for exactly 4.5 cups.
When I get braver, then I will try to bake a loaf, but will use the recipe from the new book. You are right, if I start small, then as I gain experience and confidence with this new machine, then I will not be as anxious.
BTW, how does one attach a photo, or is it something that goes into the "my files" section?
Again, my thanks!
I really think it shouldn't be an issue. I have baked quite a few enriched loaves (butter, eggs, milk, sugar, etc.) leavened with sourdough, and I let them ferment until they are ready. I'm not talking about using a bread machine, just my hands. They always work out. Now it is true that sourdough doughs tend to get acidic and that will inhibit the growth of undesired organisms, but mine weren't very sour at all. In your case the times will be relatively short.
Be at the place where you want the picture in your post.
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Click on the 9th one above. Stay under 2mb. (Screenshot your picture to reduce its file size.) It will ask you to upload a picture. Go to the photo you want; select it. Upload and then insert. You can resize it in the post.
For baking:
Keep a record of times for the stages in the dough cycle you will use for pizza.
When you bake bread, do the same for each stage:
knead
rest
knead
rise
bake
Good to hear from you!
US butter has roughly 15% water (European butter a little less) plus a few percent milk solids. So roughly 80% of the butter by weight is fat - 2/3 would be a rough-and-ready way to approximate this. So you should need less oil to match the amount of oil in a given weight of butter. Whether that matters much will depend on how much butter you are going to replace.
TomP
So, looking at the recipe closely, for whole wheat bread, 2 lb loaf, it calls for 2.5 T butter. 75% of that is 1.875, so you are right, that is not a large difference, and probably insignificant. This takes me back to college when my friends and I used to make chocolate chip cookies, and the Tollhouse recipe at that time called for 1 tsp of water. I agonized over that until my friend told me the 1 tsp was inconsequential and was probably something done for "luck"! Almost 50 years later I still remember that moment. 8-)
Thanks!
My advice is to ignore the "fresh dairy" warning and use butter on the delay cycle. Buttler does not go off sitting at room temperature. The manual probably was overly cautious about other types of "dairy" perhaps going sour. I would ignore that too.
But, since you are familiar with using oil instead and would prefer that, go ahead. You will work out the quantity (the difference between 3/4 and 1 won't make any difference in the small amount of fat called for, IMO).
Since bread machine recipes don't (as far as I know) call for adding fat at a later stage to allow gluten development, that would have no bearing on adding it for the delay cycle either. However, you could try adding it later in the kneading, using the regular cycle sometime.
Hope your machine is able to produce that 2lb loaf. How do the quantities/dough weight compare between machines before baking?
I do prefer oil, partly because the recipes calling for butter use unsalted butter, and I just do not use it regularly enough so it would likely go to waste. Plus, as you say, I am used to using oil. Old dog, old habits I guess!
So, I pulled out both recipe books. Usually, I made a white wheat loaf in my old machine, which called for 3.5 cups of bread flour and .5 cups of whole wheat flour. As I pointed out to my husband, that recipe usually rose to the top of the bread pan. Now, the amount of flour is in the allowable amounts as mentioned in the new recipe book, but if it were to rise as much as in the old machine, it would be about 1 inch over the top of the pan!
The new cookbook says it makes a 2 pound whole wheat loaf, that uses 2.5 cups whole wheat flour and 1.5 cups all purpose flour. So, same total flour, but I know whole wheat bread will be denser. Interestingly enough, I never did make the whole wheat loaf from the old cookbook, but it only lists a 1.5 pound loaf! I did make a pumpernickle loaf and it makes a 2 lb loaf, using 2 cups bread flour, 1 cup whole wheat flour, and 1 cup rye flour. So, at least flour-wise, the amounts are mostly comparable.
I guess I have a learning curve with the new machine, and it was of course silly of me to not expect that!
Thanks for your insight!
I have learned that when I make (US) biscuits and I use salted butter, I can either cut the recipe salt amount in half or even omit it and get good flavor and results. Salt helps to preserve the butter. And something that may not be widely appreciated, at least in the US, flavoring is added to unsalted butter - it's on the label if you look carefully - and it's not listed on salted butter.
I'm sure that the flavoring is put there because otherwise too many people would complain that their unsalted butter doesn't taste buttery enough.
So with salted butter you can avoid an added flavoring addition.
Substitute 1:1. See if you like it. Then adapt the substitution for the next time. It's an adaptive and iterative process.
Oh, my - you are all the best! You are nudging me out of my comfort zone, but that is not a bad thing - just be patient, as I change slowly!
So, yesterday I took my old pizza dough recipe and made it in the new machine. This is the one that calls for 4.5 cups of flour. The dough cycle runs 1.5 hours, and I happened to be there right as it finished since it was getting close to lunch. I like to get the dough in the pans and rising on the stove all afternoon - we like a thick crust. I took a picture of the dough before removing it from the pan and am attaching it. It rose all the way to the top and a little above the bread pan. To me, this says I will be safer using the recipes in the book that came with the new machine, but the pizza dough recipe from the old machine stays. I just need to there to remove it once done. Sometimes I would not remove it immediately from the old machine, and it would continue to rise. There is no room for that here.
I did sit down with the recipe book from the new machine and looked them over more closely, and have decided to try one of them later this week. I will post the results when I have them.
I also happen to have some vegan "butter" (my son-in-law is vegan) which stays in the fridge, but I wonder if that would work on the delay cycle? I hear what you all are saying about butter being able to sit out, and the point about salted vs non-salted butter has gotten me thinking and so I will investigate the labels on the package to see how much sodium is in the salted versions.
Thank you all!
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Well, today I tried baking a loaf of bread. I used one of the recipes from the book, and followed the recipe exactly. This one called for oil, so no worries about butter. Oh, it did call for all-purpose flour and I only had bread flour, but the book said I could use either.
Unfortunately, the bread turned out overly crusty, and despite rising nicely, sometime during the last hour of baking the center collapsed, making it look like a volcanic caldera. I am very upset because this is exactly the problem I was having with my old bread machine during the last two years - which led me to just use it to make dough. The old machine had recently also started squeaking loudly which my husband said was a bearing going, so that is why we got this new machine. I thought with a new machine, I could bake bread again, but now my hopes are dashed. Does anyone have any suggestions?
Thanks in advance!
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When was it removed from the pan? Enjoy!
I had set it to finish around 5 pm so it could cool for dinner, and I was in the kitchen within 10 minutes of it finishing. The machine has a 1 hour automatic hold period, so it was still warm.
Thanks!
Don't let a failure discourage you. Perhaps the fault is in the settings that are manual--crust colour, for example. I'm not familiar with the choices of your machine, but the bread looks underbaked to me.
Yes, it is possible that I did not select the correct crust color! I did feel like the center was a bit underbaked, but the crust was very hard!
is some combination of too wet and too much yeast. It's a common occurrence when baking at high altitude.
Notice how the browning ends about 2/3 up the sides? That's a heat transfer problem. With the heating element at the bottom, a thin sheet-aluminum baking pan, and a viewing window in the lid, the top third is running much cooler than the bottom. In general, you'll get better results with any bread machine baking a mid-size loaf, where the upper crust is below the lip of the pan.
Bread machine manuals usually give different loaf sizes for each recipe. Try the next smaller size. And back off the yeast a little.
So, I am not at high altitude. I live in Maryland, USA, near sea level. The manual section on troubleshooting said it could be high humidity, but it is winter and the air is pretty dry. I thought I was careful on measuring the liquid, but will try harder next time. The upper crust was below the lip of the pan, but I understand what you are saying about temperature differentials. Definitely an aluminum pan! My old machine had a heavier pan.
The recipe I made had three size choices, 1, 1.5, and 2 pound loaves. I was making the 2 pound option.
So, are you also saying to put in less yeast than the recipe calls for? Was this possibly a result of using bread flour instead of all purpose flour? The book did say I could substitute, but I am just wondering?
Thanks for all you help!
I didn't mean to suggest you are at high-altitude; only that it's a familiar occurrence for high-altutude bakers (such as myself). Loaf rises "beautifully", but then collapses while baking. It's risen too far too fast and can't support it.
So yes, I suggest trying a little less yeast than the recipe calls for, and baking a smaller loaf size.
And I hope you know I did not take umbrage at your response - I am just at a loss for what is happening when my situation does not fit the profile where it will usually occur!
I am going to try a whole wheat loaf later this week, and will try your suggestions, although maybe one at a time so I can isolate the problem! I'll post a pic when I do.
Thanks so much!
how it works out. And check the dough during knead. BM's don't handle too-wet dough like a panless bake in an oven does. There's nowhere for the excess moisture to go.
Hi! So, I made a whole wheat loaf on Sunday. This is a different recipe than I made the first time, so I was unsure what to expect. Firstly, however, I did fix the crust color - used the medium setting, which made a nice outside. I wanted to only change one thing at a time to try and suss out the issues, but doing a different recipe clearly is a big change. I made a 2 pound loaf and backed off the yeast as suggested. Next time, I will try a 1.5 pound loaf, with a little less yeast than called for.
The bread did seem to sink a little during baking. I am almost positive that it rose higher than it ended up, but it was not a caldera loaf this time, just kind of flat on the top. I do not think too much liquid is an issue - I did look at the loaf while it was kneading and rising, and it seemed ok - not overly doughy. I try very hard to measure exactly because I know how important that is for bread machines.
The inside of the finished loaf seemed to me to be more "done" than the first loaf I made - not sure if the darker crust, or different type of bread was responsible for that, but either way, I was definitely happier with the insides.
Perhaps I am set in my ways, but I am comparing this loaf to ones made in my old bread machine, and it just is smaller overall than what I used to get, despite using a similar amount of flour and other ingredients, and both being called "2 pound loaves." I probably have to accept this new reality, and just work to fix the caldera issue.
Here is a picture of the loaf from Sunday.
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