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Need some thoughts on what cause crumb to have sticky mouthfeel

ws.hicks's picture
ws.hicks

Need some thoughts on what cause crumb to have sticky mouthfeel

I just baked a few recipes over the weekend and this morning, an unexpected comment came from my wife and I'm trying to pin point what caused it.

She commented that there is some sticky mouthfeel to my bread that she don't particularly like, and it was something the commercial breads don't have. There were three variety of breads this morning and one of them particularly has less sticky mouthfeel than the other two. They are all adapted from the same base recipes of my milk sandwich loaf (butter & sugar but no egg) with some tweak of their own, all of them has whole wheat & rye starter for flavor. They are as following:

1. Oatmeal and seeds roll. This is an experiment roll to see what would happen if I add soaked seeds and oatmeal to the original recipe. I end up having to add 15% more flour to the base recipe as it cannot hold all the additional seeds and their soaking water. So in proportion, this one have less sugar/milk/butter/salt than the original recipe and the other two, but turn out to be the one with minimal sticky mouthfeel. The roll itself turns out quite good. Airy, springy, moist, just a bit bland since it use same amount of salt/butter/sugar as original recipe but now there are 15% additional flour and 40% of seeds and oats (dry weight in baker's math, and altogether they soak up about 1.5x of their weight or another 60% water in baker's math.)

2. Oatmeal and seeds loaf. Since the test roll almost not come together, I took a drastic measure on this one. Still 15% more flour, but about 20% water cut. Proportionally more salt/butter/sugar to compensate for the seeds. Also another 2% butter & sugar increase for richer taste. The dough turn out so dry that my only option is kneading while the test roll need slap and fold; so quite polar opposite. There was some visible tear during bulk. Almost, if not none, oven spring. The loaf turn out relatively dry and dense. Not overly, but compare to the original recipe or the test roll, it's a lot drier and denser. She said the sicky mouth feel is about the same as the next one.

3. Dinner roll. One egg is added and roughly equivalent amount of water was cut out from the recipe to compensate (75% of egg weight). Overall hydration might goes up by approx. 5%. Also 2% butter & sugar increase for richer taste. Salt stay the same as it doesn't have to compensate for seeds & oats. Mistake was made and less yeast was added. The dough ferment much slower that it starts to gain some tang (from sourdough starter). Crust is a little drier and thicker - shouldn't make much different IMO. I prolong bake time to brown it, and the roll turns out a bit drier than when I baked a loaf with the same recipe (no salt/butter/sugar increase back then); not sure how much effect baking in the pan instead of covered pullman tin have on dryness.

From what I tried to discern, I think the by sticky mouthfeel she meant the collapsed crumb stick together and to the inside of her mouth. My first guess was the dryness since both of the stickier one are dry in one way or another (less hydration vs too long bake time), but then I notice they are both higher in butter and sugar. It's counter intuitive to me at first since both ingredient were supposed to make the crumb more moist, but since part of my guess is the crumb collapsed together, these two ingredients can also disrupt gluten and maybe make it more easier to collapse? The two stickier ones do feel like more crumbly and less chewy, so that just don't help me shake off this doubt.

So, here I come for outside opinions. What do you guys think was the issue here?

tpassin's picture
tpassin

It sounds like more baking time, maybe at a lower temperature, is needed to drive out more moisture.  Even if the bread measures the target temperature inside, it can still retain too much water, especially in enriched doughs that have inclusions that hang onto water.

If your target temperature is on the low side because these are enriched rolls (perhaps 195 deg F/91C), go for a higher temperature.  If that makes the crust too hard, bake for a lower temperature for a longer time or cover the tops during the last part of the bake..

Sometimes I leave my loaves inside the oven after the baking time with the oven off and its door open a bit for five or ten more minutes.  That seems to help.  Another thing that helps is to let the breads rest for several hours or the next day after baking.

I'm sure you will get other suggestions, but I'd start with these.

TomP

ws.hicks's picture
ws.hicks

Thank you for your reply again, TomP.

Sorry that this might seems like I just refuse you suggestion right out of the gate, but I'm a bit conflicted here. Maybe I made the explanation confusing, but, to me, the two that have stickier mouthfeel felt drier than the less sticky one. I'm genuinely open to other suggestion also, but for it to be the opposite direction, I might need more pointer to see how it'd go that way.

tpassin's picture
tpassin

Not to worry if someone doesn't try a suggestion of mine!  I'm having trouble with the idea of sticky-but-dry. Maybe one of your inclusions exudes something with that mouth feel even though the crumb itself is dry enough.  Maybe there's a way to prep them to avoid it.  Like toasting seeds, for example. After all, this quality seems to have come about after you added more inclusions, if I understood you.

TomP

ws.hicks's picture
ws.hicks

I kind of see where you are coming from now. Hmm... One of them doesn't include seeds so it'd probably be something else. Do you think toasting or steaming the bread would isolate your guess and mine?

tpassin's picture
tpassin

Steaming doesn't do as much for the bread when it's baked in a loaf pan, but it wouldn't hurt, either.  I'm not sure what you meant by "toasting" unless you mean the inclusions.  I'd try that.

ws.hicks's picture
ws.hicks

Sorry, I mean toasting the bread. I still have some of them left. Would the result be the same as baking it longer? On the other direction, would steaming them inject more moisture into it?

As for the seeds, yes, they were already toasted before soaking.

tpassin's picture
tpassin

Toasting slices ought to clear up any gummy mouth feel, I would think.  A loaf could also be rebaked (without steam) to try to drive off moisture, but you said these particular ones seemed dry to you already.

ws.hicks's picture
ws.hicks

That's what I felt, but I kind of get you now that normally it'd have to be undercooked rather than the other way around to be sticky. Since I still don't know what cause it anyway, it wouldn't hurt to try. At the same time, maybe I'll steam another slice and see if that help.

ws.hicks's picture
ws.hicks

Turns out you are right.

Toasting it does help, so that means the bread did not cook through thoroughly. Come to think of it, that's one caveat of bread with Tang Zhong in high proportion. As for why it felt dry to me would be a new puzzle; my best guess is that it might be dry on the outside while the center is still gummy? Not sure if that's possible.

tpassin's picture
tpassin

That means the bread did not cook through thoroughly.

Not necessarily.  If the internal temperature gets up to say 195 deg F/90C, the dough will be cooked adequately.  But a loaf can have a lot of moisture even when it gets up to say 210 deg F/98C, and still feel a little gummy.  Sometimes a loaf like that will be fine a day or two later.  More time in the oven will drive out more of that moisture.