September 21, 2023 - 6:38pm
Lönner one-stage sourdough process
I'm stumped on this one.
I came across this reference (link) that mentions the Lönner one-stage SD process. It appears to be distinct from the one-stage Detmolder process and the Berliner Kurzsauer. The article is behind a paywall, and my curiosity is not strong enough to shell out $31.50.
Any ideas?
Thanks!
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https://drive.google.com/file/d/1EmkJEC33hAcJ161EZjolC8L4EbtlQrOq/view?usp=drive_link here is the PDF
Thanks, Ilya! That's a very interesting article. I will add this to my ever-expanding list of SD experiments!
Ilya, thank you!
Do you also have access to the article where they published their method of creating Swedish spontaneously fermented sourdough that they used in the Lönner one step liquid preferment a.k.a Lönner one step rye sour?
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1MT-nWoQhiTCLO0P8UzV3xbEtWyrIO8yl/view?usp=drivesdk hope this works?
It works :)
👍👍👍
Bless you.
Thank you Alcophile for bring our attention to this process. Thank you Ilya for finding the source article. For anyone wanting to get to the "skinny" to try this process out, according to my calculations based on the article, it's
ASG 7% of rye flour in the sourdough, at 167% Hydration, Fermenting at 30C/86F. for 20 Hours.
To say the obvious, this is a very hot and super-moist process compared to more typical German processes.
Put another way, you build your rye sourdough starter at seed:flour:water ~1:14:23. (But see below for reasons that 10% asg or 1:10:16.7 may be closer to what was intended.)
To give an example, for a typical 200g of fermented rye flour needed, you'd take 20g of ripe rye seed mixed with 200g of rye meal and 334g of water for 20 hours at 86F, giving you 534g or so, and adjust the overall hydration of your final dough.
FWIW the flour used in their tests was Swedish rye meal, moisture 13%, ash 1.8% protein 8.7%.
The "modified" version of the process (MLOSP) is the same exact proportions but fermented longer and hotter: namely 25h at 106F.
The claim is that the Lönner One Stage Process produces more acidification than the Detmolder due to its higher hydration (that lowers the buffer capacity) and its higher temperatures. This purportedly better suits the needs of Swedish bakeries.
Here is my summary of the key formula chart (table 2) in the article, comparing Berliner Fast-sour (BSSP), Detmolder 1-stage (LOSP), Lönner 1-stage (LOSP) and Modified-Lonner-1-stage (MLSOP). Because they define inoculation differently than the typical German Anstellgut (ASG), I've added my own row for ASG. (They define inoculation as "share of total dough weight" whereas the German standard is percentage as a share of the sourdough flour.) As a courtesy I've also added a row for baker's hydration, since the DY nomenclature for hydration is not common outside Germany.
The third and fourth columns are the Lönner process:
Based what I know of DOSP and BSSP there is likely a small error in my asg calculations. Since we know Berliner uses an ASG of 20% (1:5) and Detmolder 5% (1:20) is fairly common, we may assume my calculations are a little low for ASG across the board. In that case, Lönner should possibly be something like 10%, or 1:10:16.7.
Note that because it was a study, the seed starter used specialized freeze-dried starters to create the seed used in the one stage process. This way they could study isolated bacteria. They refreshed at very high temperatures (95F and 108F). But I don't think that affects the basic process outlined above. For home use we'd simply refresh in our standard method to compare the different processes.
For the home-baker, the necessity of maintaining 86F will prove challenging compared to the much more reasonable 77-82F of the Detmolder. Even the Monheim salt-sour process only requires 90F at the start of the process, and lets things cool to more reasonable temperatures down to the 70s naturally. So in the end the practicality of this method for home use is not clear.
@jkandell, thank you for summarizing the article for other TFL members. I did have a couple of comments about your summary.
I know you have an interest in higher temperature methods. You might also be interested in a similar process patented by scientists at the USDA: US3734743.
Thanks again for summarizing the article. I'll be interested in any results you might have with the LOSP.
That’s what confused me in the article. Lonner is trying to get a more sour starter (higher ratio acidic to lactic ratio). Yet as a control he chose the Berlin quicksour—the most mild of all German rye sours—, and the most mild of all the one-stage detmolders. You’d think a better competitor would be the more sour version (10% and inoculation at 24-26C).
i also wondered how the LOSP compares to the “Grundsauer” of the Detmold 2- or 3-stage process. As you know that process is designed to increase the acidic component, and is cooler and stiff: 23-28C with hydration 50-60%.
Lonner is trying to get a more sour starter (higher ratio acidic to lactic ratio). Yet as a control he chose the Berlin quicksour—the most mild of all German rye sours—, and the most mild of all the one-stage detmolders
I didn't read it that way. IIRC, the paper said that German and Eastern European rye breads were too sour for Swedish tastes and that he wanted to come up with a similar process that would produce breads more acceptable for Swedish preferences (the word "sweet" was mentioned).
I agree with @tpassin. Lönner's goal wasn't to prepare a more sour SD (higher TTA), but a…
The higher FQ would be perceived as less sour, despite the higher TTA. The higher hydration slurry could also be pumped through equipment to facilitate high-volume production.
My impression of the 2- and 3-stage Detmolder SD processes is that they produce superior flavor but are labor-intensive and not amenable to high-volume bakery production. They still have a place in artisan baking, however. The BSSP and DOSP are more amenable to bakery production because they are one step processes, but the slurry and FQ of the LOSP wins.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1MT-nWoQhiTCLO0P8UzV3xbEtWyrIO8yl/view?usp=drivesdk hope this works?
This is such a good article, Ilya.
Lonner's Swedish starter is the identical twin brother of professor Calvel's starter, only in rye instead of wheat and in two simple steps instead of many. I also loved the graphs in this article and counts of enterobacter, lactobacilli and yeast, as the starter and the chef (masa madre, lievito naturale, sourdough) fermented. And how they confirmed the fact that lactic bacteria stop growing in numbers once pH drops to 3.9- 4.1.
I will make that starter from scratch, especially now I know which rye meal will work for it, they describe it as well.
Very good. Thank you again, Ilya!
Yes, thanks indeed, Ilya.
The article also shows how many and varied the LAB organisms can be, reinforcing that we probably don't have much of an idea about what our own wild starters contain.
TomP