September 21, 2023 - 5:56pm
Bread troubleshooting request
I'm getting a little disheartened with my bread making. Can't seem to produce a decent loaf these days, was much better in the past. Could someone assist perhaps? I made a loaf today, 500g KA AP, about 75% hydration. Mixed and kneaded with an ancient Kitchen Aid mixer, rested for an hour with a few folds intermittently, then pulled into a boule, proofed for 105 minutes in a banneton at about 72F, baked at 450F in a cloche for 25 mins then another 10 uncovered. The result was pretty poor, as attached—the crumb was damp and a bit sticky, very thin and soft crust, the scores just disappeared, and the entire loaf a little flat. Any advice would be most appreciated.
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Instant yeast or sourdough? Either way, I don't see a bulk fermentation step in there except for the one hour rest with a few folds. That's not enough, IMHO, even with instant yeast. The gluten structure could also be underdeveloped, and a missing bulk fermentation would contribute to that.
TomP
Thank you for the observations, very helpful. This is a yeast bread. I'm going to go back to my tried and tested recipe from KA—overnight starter, next day mix, bulk for 45 mins, deflate a bit, bulk another 45 mins, divide, rest 15-60 min, shape, rise 45 mins, bake. Does this sound OK to you? If you have any adjustments to this, appreciate it. I always find it difficult to determine the peak rise using the finger test. Thanks again.
I think you should plan for a longer bulk ferment. Here's how I think about it. Dough improves in flavor the longer it's hydrated. It also improves in flavor and texture the longer it's fermented, within limits of course, but you won't be anywhere close to those limits. So I favor longish bulk ferments.
Perhaps your bulk ferments rise faster than mine. If I saw a doubling in volume in an hour, I too would deflate it and give it more time.
Thank you!
J
Disappointing results just make me want to get it right. Our passable but dense sourdough baguettes sent me on a mission to get them airy and crusty some years ago…and I eventually got there, in large part with the resources provided here at TFL.
Because I know you’re going to go for it, here are a few ideas for your next batch of dough:
Best of luck,
Phil
Thank you! For a 500g flour boule using yeast, how long do you think the final proof should take, say at 70F, just ballpark. Closer to the 90 mins than 45?
Til its done is the best answer. Enjoy!
Sage advice, thank you Phaz!
I see values in that whole range, but again, it does depend on so many things about your specific recipe and process. I'd say that proofing would always be quicker than the bulk ferment. So if your bulk ferment only took an hour - I mean if you didn't cut it short or omit it but it really developed that fast - then you might even see a proofing time of half an hour. If so then 45 minutes might have been overproofed.
Why do I say that proofing is quicker than bulk? Because I have measured dough volume vs time many times, for yeasted bread, poolish, starter, and sourdough and in every case after a rise to double or triple the volume, after degassing and kneading, stretching, or stirring, the rise in volume would resume faster than before, and usually to a larger final volume than before.
So when after bulk ferment the dough is manipulated during shaping, I am confident that the development during proofing will be quicker than it was during bulk ferment. And that's what I normally see.
An example is the loaf of 80% whole wheat that I baked this morning. I used a small amount of starter to get an overnight bulk ferment. After 8 hours the dough had doubled. I stretched and folded it gently, and it doubled in the next two hours. After I shaped the loaf - I didn't need to make a preform - it proofed in 1 1/4 hour.
This wouldn't be the case if bulk ferment went on to a degree that the dough structure was damaged or the yeast food all used up, but that seems awfully unlikely in your case.
TomP
Thank you Tom, really interesting about bulk vs proof. I'll definitely keep this in mind.
…so start checking at 45 minutes, but like Phaz sez…til it’s done. I doubt if you’d overferment at 90, but depends on how cold your fridge is, how warm the room or proofing environment is and don’t discount the proofing surface. I usually proof on a wood counter, then in an 80 degree oven. If you are proofing on cool marble as I will be tomorrow (borrowed a beach house for a month), things could go slower.
I'll keep this in mind, thank you. Enjoy that beach house!
Thank you everyone for the quick assistance!
Thank you Phil, I've added your suggestions to my recipe and will try this week.