September 13, 2023 - 2:03pm
mashed potato (4%) in clas ww
Gary Bishop and Benny recently baked great loaves with dried potato flakes.
This is my first use of dehydrated potato flakes in bread dough.
There is a marked softness in a slice and the contrast of soft interior and a toasted surface is great.
The loaf rose to 5.75in (compared to usual 5.25in).
recipe:
3.95% whole wheat malt (freshly ground) (20gr)
3.95% dehydrated potato flakes (20 gr)
6.1% whole rye (in clas) (31 gr rye flour- so 90g clas)
86% whole wheat red-freshly ground (435 gr)
(1.6 g = 1/2 t diy)
80% hydration and 2% salt. Baked in Zojirushi BM.
Here is the crumb shot [sorry for the rough cut-dull knife :( ]
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Consistent crumb throughout which seems to be a hallmark of CLAS.
Is there any potato-ey taste to it?
4% potato flakes-not much taste effect (my opinion). Main effect is softness.
I think that I would hydrate the potato flakes at a lower % (65%?). I had it at 80% (hydration for freshly milled whole grain berries).
Potato is what brings that essential pillowyness to the Singaporean Kaya bun recipe I use.
120g potato to 600g flour. Its surprising how this much softens has such a useful structure as a bun.
Also - Kaya toast and strong coffee...so good.
Hi, Thanks for this recipe!!
Would it be good for filling with BBQ pork or sweet azuki bean [aste?
Are Pandan essential for the flavor?
That could work...also it is a fantastic analogy of a plain (neutral) burger bun.
Pandan is not in the bun, it is in the Kaya jam that is the traditional topping for these. The same site (Ieatishootipost) also has a good recipe for kaya jam.
I am surprised Kaya Jam is not more widely known - it is such a great flavour with butter on simple bread..
Jo_en, you bake unusually good breads, very good looking and I am sure fragrant and tasty, considering that its flour is freshly milled. Simply remarkable!
Is that a rye flour clas or rye malt based clas? If it is rye malt, then it's a total of 10% diastatic malt in bread, a huge amount. Very unusual.
Hi Mariana,
Thank you for your very kind remarks. :)
The rye in this clas is regular grain not malted (I think in flas, 100% grain is malted).The overall malt then is less than 4%<-- that is the limit. It does give that crunch on toast!
I am on Day 3 of 4 Day clas.
Would it be ok to make a lot and freeze it? Say, save some Day 3 mixture in the freezer and resume the last day later on?
Thank you for all the info- it takes me a bit of time to digest it all!
PS I love the baked cabbage rolls in your LJ article. It's amazing the humble cabbage really shines in the pastry wrapper you gave!
Jo_en,
Ok, my mistake then, I assumed there was wheat and rye malt, both diastatic. 4% is safe indeed, the results speak for themselves.
I have no data on freezing CLAS, especially when it is not completed.
Only very stiff starters can be frozen for up to one month at minus 10-15C, then slowly defrosted in the fridge at 2-4C (find the coldest part of your refrigerator for that) and only then warmed up and refreshed/fed/reconstituted. Maybe if you added flour to your CLAS until crumbs of very stiff mass is formed, then you would be able to freeze it or refrigerate it for long periods of time as is shown here by JonJ, I do not know. Experiment with that, please!
Soft and liquid starters cannot be frozen, their microflora will be damaged by water crystals beyond repair.
You can take a break in the middle of the process of developing a starter from scratch and simply refrigerate it, then resume the process until done. For that feed it and refrigerate it at 5-10C for periods of time as long as 7 - 90days. Then take it out, activate its microflora (warm it up for 30-120min to bring it to 40C), feed it, etc.
You can also dry CLAS by mixing it and rubbing it with sterile bran (or bran cereal) or finely ground dry bread crumbs, and drying it in a dehydrator or in a clean room at 25C. It keeps for three months at room temperature then.
P.S. Yes, those were nice! My husband loves cabbage rolls/pies, I do not know why, really, so by now I probably know dozens if not hundreds of ways of making them, baked or fried, with different cabbage based fillings, and wrapped in different pastry or bread doughs :)))
Hi Mariana,
I am puzzled now about frozen clas.
For months now, I have made rusbrot's clas (750+ grams) (24hr method) and by the next day I have frozen them in 150 gr portions (90gr for 500 gr total flour loaves; 60 gr for pita) in small plastic tubs. I have defrosted them on the kitchen counter and used them for 100% lean whole wheat loaves and pita and also rye loaves from 50-50 to 95% Borodinsky loaves. The breads all seem fine.
Same applies to flas.
What am I missing?
Jo_en, it might depend on how long they were frozen. I do not know. I do not freeze my starters, I either refrigerate them, or dry them and I always carefully restore them after before using, refresh them, etc. Even when a bread recipe asks for something acidic in its formula, like beer or vinegar, yogurt, etc. I add a bit of a living very active starter instead (and dry milk, if necessary, etc.).
Also, you do not test them after defrosting, there is no activation step, no refreshment step, etc. As far as I know, even frozen yeasted preparations (frozen pizza dough, frozen raw croissants and rolls, etc) need to be defrosted in the fridge and only then proofed on the counter and (shaped and) baked.
You seem to be using defrosted starters only because they contain lactic acid in them (and other minor acids of course, as sources of flavors) which is fine, dried powdered starters could be used like that as well. As carriers of lactic acid, as dough conditioners and flavoring agents. Such sourdough starters, they are even sold in grocery stores like that, in little packets resembling ketchup and mustard packets in fast food restaurants, there are no living bacteria in them and they expire after one year at room temperature. One 150g packet is enough for one loaf of yeasted rye bread (1.2kg).
Whereas in classic applications of defrosted starters they are supposed to be active, their bacteria and yeast working as if they were never frozen: multiplying, actively acidifying bread dough on schedule, leavening it (having normal gassing power).
With starters containing yeast, the difference between properly and improperly frozen and/or defrosted starters would be more obvious, because bread simply won't rise. With yeastless starters it is more tricky because very few of us titrate at home.
As far as I know, even frozen yeasted preparations (frozen pizza dough, frozen raw croissants and rolls, etc) need to be defrosted in the fridge and only then proofed on the counter and (shaped and) baked.
Some Whole Food stores in the US carry frozen unbaked croissants. The directions say to let them warm up on the counter for 30 minutes, then bake. I don't know how it is possible, but they rise nicely in the oven and taste quite good when baked, better than any fully baked "croissants" I've been able to buy in US supermarkets.
Maybe it's a different strain of yeast specially designed for frozen dough applications. I bought frozen croissants only once or twice in the past. I usually buy frozen pizza dough balls to thaw, enrich it, and use it to bake a variety of pies and rolls.
I looked online and one Canadian bakery manufactures frozen unbaked croissants which should be defrosted and proofed for 12hrs at room temperature (25C/77F) before being baked.
Their instructions: To Proof: Remove product from packaging. Place frozen croissants seam-side down on lined baking sheet. Place tray in a turned-off oven and proof overnight for 12 hours. To bake: Preheat conventional oven to 400°F. Reduce heat to 375°F and place the baking sheet with croissants on the middle rack. Bake for 18 to 22 minutes until a deep, golden brown and crisp. Remove from the oven and let cool for 20 minutes before serving.
In your country, frozen croissants manufacturers differ in their instructions widely. Those from Whole Foods are in the minority group (3 brands out of ten selected as "best"), most manufacturers say that their croissants require long defrosting in the fridge and/or overnight proof at warm room temperature.
Williams Sonoma sells unbaked frozen croissants that require only 30min thawing before baking, no proofing needed. Argentinian croissants require only an hour long thawing before baking, etc. See the list below, please.
https://www.thespruceeats.com/best-frozen-croissants-5085181
Thank Mariana for going over so many aspects on this subject! I think I will save off some clas by rubbing it in dry flour as that seems to be a stable way to keep from it from degradations.
Day 3 in progress! I decided to use most of the Day 2 product . I made the 3:1 mix for Day 3. I will have to save off most of Day 3 since Day 4 is a 1:9 refreshment.
I held back 35 gr of Day 2 to make pita with. I am hoping it will be fine. :)
Jo-en, good morning!
Are you keeping a journal of your observations, of day by day changes in CLAS as in evolves and matures (its look, smell, acidity, color changes, volume changes - rising or flat, foaming or bubbling, liquid separation - there should be none, etc.)? Taking pictures?
The first two or three days the discards are definitely not edible even if you acidified it with vinegar in the first step. Maybe if you acidified the first day mass with an existing regular sourdough starter, it would be safe to use the discards, I do not know. I only tried acidification with a sd starter once, I did not get CLAS any faster than from a plain flour and water mix, and abandoned that route.
Hi Mariana,
I have kept some notes and will be more detailed from here on out.
Usually I never have bad smells when making clas 24hr nor have I had it so far in this 4 day process. Well, actually it had a very slight smell today (Day 3).
I did make pita taking 35 gr discard after Day 2 was done. I didn't smell anything bad about it or the pita dough or cooked pita. The dough was easy to handle and had a good feel to it.
I hope it (discard after Day2) is not bad in substance with respect to health concerns.
I did start with thawed clas that I had from the freezer and went right into Day 2 with it.
In a couple of hours, I will be at Day 4. I hope I get plum fragrance!
Thank you again for the wealth of information you so handily give out. I am assembling my handbook on clas now!
Those sound delicious. Do you have a link for the article?
Thanks!
Hi,
I too must get to these!
Here is where I read about them-
https://mariana-aga.livejournal.com/tag/%D0%BF%D0%B8%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%B3%D0%B8%20%D0%B8%20%D0%BA%D1%83%D0%BB%D0%B5%D0%B1%D1%8F%D0%BA%D0%B8
It is at Mariana's Live Journal blog and she had several very tempting recipes on "pies".
Please show yours when done and the cabbage recipe you use!!