August 30, 2023 - 11:34pm
Whole Grain Rolls
I would like to make rolls rather than loaves using the same high whole grain formulas that I use for loaves, things like:
80% Rye w/ Rye Soaker and some other ryes from "The Rye Baker".
I vaguely remember reading something about limiting the percentage of whole grains for rolls.
Can you give me any guidelines on choosing high whole grain formulas that will work well as rolls, and what if any adjustments in the formulas (certainly reduced baking time, etc) are needed.
Besides making rolls similar (not necessarily identical) to the loaves, I'd like to make some baked whole grain bao-like rolls with various fillings (like Chinese baked bao only in the filling, not the bread package).
Thanks
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Hello Louis,
I use a spreadsheet that calculates a revised formula from the original. All the percentages remain the same and the revised final weight & yield returns the “new” weight for each ingredient. (i.e. 37x680g loaves can easily be input as 12x90g rolls maintaining the percentage weight of ingredients throughout)
The sheet can also compare multiple recipes and the ingredients involved, which means you can adjust the formulas with the amount of whole grains included on a line-by-line basis. There is a note section on each row in to help get the best results.
As for other adjustments - consider shaping techniques
You can download a sample of the spreadsheet her
https://metricsbaking.wixsite.com/metricsbaking/samplespreadsheet
Rafe
I clicked on the image to get the sample spreadsheet but all I get is a "Loading..." message for a while, and then nothing.
Based on your description of the spreadsheet, I'm sure it's very useful, but it's not quite what I was looking for.
Than ks
It worked for me, but I had to enable javascript for the site first (that's in case your browser is using a javascript blocker).
Hi Louis - Sorry to hear you couldn't download the spreadsheet. If you are using Chrome - JavaScript is recommended (As tpassin mentioned) So if you change your settings it should be okay. You can also try right-clicking & save-as using the open link in the new tab option on the short menu. If you still have problems, send me your email and I'll get a copy over to you.
I have attached a recipe card for wholegrain rolls. The reason for offering the spreadsheet was that you can make not-so-good rolls, so very, very good by adjusting formulas for rolls from other roll/loaf recipes. Using the sheet to compare multiple recipes and adjusting formulas is easily done as all recipes are on the same page so to speak.
"Can you give me any guidelines on choosing high whole grain formulas that will work well as rolls, and what if any adjustments in the formulas (certainly reduced baking time, etc.) are needed".
Rafe
Bread Roll - Wholegrain - Metrics Baking_001.png
I was able to download and look at the sample in your message. Your spreadsheet is very impressive, it's really up to a professional standard. Here's a link to an old BBGA article on their formatting standard for formulas BBGA Formula Formatting
In your sample in your post above, I see 150g preferment in the main recipe, but I don't see it in the preferment breakdowns below. What am I missing?
Hi Louis -You're not missing anything - That recipe was found online and had the preferment added as an ingredient.
If you are looking at it as a breakdown flour/water/Sd seed, then the 150 is entered as such in the Sourdough or the Preferment sections (i.e., 65f/65w/20sd start) or any other combination you choose.
My blog section has a Recipe card for the BBGA Rustic sourdough with three flours, a cracked wheat soaker and a yeasted preferment (Formula Layout Standards Part II diagram 4) found HERE. where you will see a complete & corrected breakdown.(see card for correction)
The sheet will handle Reinhart, Robertson, BBGA, Hamelman, Forkish and others' methodology as to how and what is calculated and how it is expressed. The end-user has the freedom to enter and change these in a way that is comfortable for them to use. Converting recipes to your own style of baking can be done over several rows. It is your choice, your style, your sheet.
Rafe
Isand66 he’s made every kind of delectable roll imaginable with addins and home milled grains. Many many formulas on his TFL blog. I’ll link one and you can scroll for more. Have to search using Google as TFL’s search engine is lacking.
https://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/30691/durum-potato-rolls
Thanks, the blog looks great, but I was hoping for some more general guidance on what kinds of whole grain loaf doughs make good (or not so good) rolls, and adjusting baking temps/times for rolls vs loaves.
As general guidance for baking, I find that smaller loaves (e.g., rolls) need a higher temperature and a shorter time than larger loaves. That's so the outside and inside can get cooked to the same degree, since the oven's heat penetrates the interior more quickly the smaller the loaf. Also, if you want a softer roll, you probably will want a lower temperature (despite what I just wrote!), and have the surface cooked a little less than you might for a loaf.
Good tip. Oddly, many roll formulas say bake at 350 F (lower than for artisan breads) but maybe they have a lot of butter.
I normally don't make rolls, but I consulted Reinhart's Whole Grain Breads and Hamelman's Bread (1st ed.) for info on rolls.
Reinhart indicates that the formulas can be made into rolls, but he only gives instructions for shaping, not baking time/temperature.
Hamelman states on p. 211 in the recipe for 66% Sourdough Rye that as the amount of rye flour increases, rolls become more difficult and 66% is about the upper limit for rolls. I'm not sure that recipe or the caution are in the 3rd ed.
I used to use Reinhart's "The Baker's Apprentice" a lot. I even went to see him do a class at Sur le Table in Berkeley once.
Now, his traditional measurements (lbs/oz rather than g) are really annoying. And I find I don't need the spray oil he uses a lot.
Thanks for the reminder on Hamelman's remark about the max rye % for rolls. The formula is also in the 3rd edition, with the same note about rolls.
I started flipping back in the 2nd edition (paper; my copy of the 3rd is electronic) and ran across Whole-Rye and Whole-Wheat Bread, which is 50% high gluten flour, 25% whole wheat, and 25% whole rye. Wheat + rye meteil breads are delicious, and that one might make good rolls.
I started with the Whole-Rye and Whole Wheat Sourdough from "Bread" 2nd edition:
Whole-Rye and Whole-Wheat "Bread" 2nd ed
Following various suggestions for converting loaves to buns, I increased the hydration from 68% to 73%. And, as Hamelman suggests when you scale his commercial size metric quantities down, I used 1.5X the amount of rye culture (18g vs 12g). I scaled the rolls to 100g.
Here are the results: Whole Rye & Wheat Bun Photos
The crumb is tight but not dense at all. Baking just 15 minutes at the regular loaf start temp (460 F) with a steam pan and the buns spritzed with water, the crust is thin and soft (I cooled the buns on the counter rather than in the oven with the door open a little).
The better palate in our condo (not mine) says that you can't taste the 25% whole rye; I think it's there but the flavor is not hugely different from Hamelman's Workday 100% WW.
My interest in rolls is mainly to serve multiple people when a bread knife isn't convenient. And I may try 120g rolls with a bao-like filling.
No significant adjustments from loaf to rolls. Keep an eye on the rolls during baking for your first batches so you can refine the baking time and temp. More surface area for rolls = shorter baking time compared to a loaf.
Any formula that works for a loaf works for a roll. Maybe a bit less hydration so the rolls hold their shape during proofing.
Regarding fillings, I don't see bread as a filled-before baking item. Your wording and grammar are unclear - do you want to bake the filling with the roll dough? Or do you want to fill the roll after it comes out of the oven? Do you want a jelly doughnut?
Based on my vast experience of one batch so far, my experience agrees with your remarks. I had increased the hydration to keep the rolls from drying out; it may not have been necessary, especially if I check the baking time a little sooner; 73% hydration rather than 68% probably contributed to the rolls flattening during proofing.
I am thinking of something like the baked version of
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cha_siu_bao. But I would probably use a veg filling - kim chee for my Korean friends, stir-fried tofu/onions/mushrooms for the vegans, etc.
I get it. Using a whole wheat bread-type (flour-water-salt-yeast) dough is barking up the wrong tree. Use a bao dough formula, which is highly enriched with sugar, milk powder and oil.