quick autolisation question
Hello,
I'm wondering, if mixing flour and water a couple of hours before adding your starter is good for developing gluten and strengthening the dough, why not do it for four hours, or six hours, or overnight?
Also, while I'm here, I have been using a jar to keep tabs on the rise of the dough during the stretch phase. I've read many different versions of how much the bulk fermentation should rise by and more recently I have tried shaping after my jar has risen by a quarter. Other times I have tried when it's doubled. I'm not really seeing a difference in the breads I end up with though. They are all good, but they still lack those magic ears I desire. People have suggested I don't bulk ferment for so long and I'm wondering what the optimal rise in the jar should be before shaping.
Personally I suspect the lack of ears is still down to my lack of surface strength in the final shape although, god knows, I'm trying and copying all the good shaping videos out there as well as adding steam to the initial bake and all that stuff. Still no ears. Great breads but no ears. Just a flat surface with lots of expansion around the slash. but completely flat.
My breads are between 70 and 75% hydration. Is it overfermentation in the bulk rise? What if I simply didn't bother with bulk fermentation at all and just shaped and stuck in the fridge overnight as soon as the stretch/mix phase was over? What effect would that have?
Just thoughts. Any of yours are gratefully received. Thanks.
i've seen recipes where the autolyse is very long (e.g., overnight), but i think they usually add salt, or refrigerate, because at those lengths of time, at room temperature, you're going to get spontaneous fermentation, and that might not be of the microbes you want.
i think the gluten development you get after mixing flour and water also plateaus (or at least slows a lot) after ~hours, so it is not worth it to continue. it is stretching the gluten network that strengthens the dough, whether through mixing, stretch-and-folds, kneading, or just the rising action of the yeast expanding the dough. i think that, if you did your other dough-development steps but otherwise cut the bulk very short and just did a long final proof you might miss out on the strengthening that happens by letting the dough rise, then be degassed during shaping, then rise again in final proof. i also always have some big bubbles in the dough at the end of bulk, which if i don't pop, become terrible caverns in the resulting loaf. that effect would be worse with a very short bulk and a very long final proof, i'd think.
of course what's optimal always depends on your goals. different recipes have different ratios of bulk to final proof. and i guess they have their reasons; i'm not expert enough yet to fully understand those. :)
sorry i cannot help much with your ear woes: i sometimes get them and sometimes not and i don't have a good handle on how to get them reliably. fwiw, the effect you describe (flat surface with lateral expansion around the slash) happens when my dough is over-proofed, not under-proofed.
this may be way off base, but what is the size/weight of the loaves you are baking? i learned to make bread using small loaves, ~1lb each (also 70-75% hydration, mostly). when i've made the more standard-sized 1kg loaves, i am much less likely to get great oven spring and nice ears. i think smaller loaves are easier, and maybe making smaller ones for a while could help you dial everything in and then you can scale back up? a pretty wacky suggestion, i guess.
anyway, hope some of this helps!
-c
But to this point i'll add another reason. Not only can one get uncontrolled fermentation but once the flour and water mix it's a race to get the bread baked before the dough deteriorates. Even if one doesn't add starter the dough over time begins to break down. Adding salt or reducing the temperature bides you more time. I sometimes do this for ease and it does have a good outcome but one needs to be careful and what one can achieve in an hour or two is really ample to make a lovey sourdough. This step of soaking the flour and water is called autolyse, kudos for thinking this one up for yourself, and it is an important step. It allows the flour to fully absorb the water and for the sugars to be released. However autolyse actually means self digestion and that is what will happen.
I prefer the dough to double during the bulk ferment. In my experience it gives better results. For ears i'm sure it's more to do with the final proof. The dough needs strength to have a good oven spring so some under [final] proofing is needed. Ears also need a good taut shaping and scoring at just the right angle. So it's not one thing or another but a combination.
To add to this thread,
here is a picture of my latest loaf. It's fairly representative of the plain white sourdough I have been making over the last few years - although this particular one is a bit denser of crumb today. I'm not sure why. I didn't retard it overnight for the first time in ages. Maybe it didn't have time to prove enough. But anyway...
75% hydration.
25% active starter.
Machine mixed on low for 15 mins until smooth and silky.
Bulk fermentation until the aliquot jar reached 50% rise with three sets of folds.
Preshape and rest for about half an hour.
Shape and prove in a banneton until the aliquot jar roughly doubled.
Turned out onto a hot stone, scored and placed in a 240 oven with steam for 10 mins.
Baked for another 40 mins.
Here's the result. The bread is always absolutely delicious. Usually with a much looser crumb.
But never ever any ears. Rarely that huge spring, although sometimes I do get decent spring but it's random.
I've tried different proving times with no real difference in the outcome. It's always the same when I slash. The dough opens up immediately. It feels like I haven't created enough tension although I really do follow all the videos. Or it feels like the surface has tension but underneath is pretty loose.
I often shape and then stick in the fridge immediately for an overnight retard without any proving outside of the fridge. Still the same results. But I am guessing that this is what an overprooved dough acts like. Any thoughts most gratefully received. Thank you
Do a pre-shape into a round then cover the dough and rest for 10-20 minutes. Then shape again into a batard. This will create more tension. Slashing is a big part of it. One can do everything else right but if the slashing isn't up to par then it won't get an ear.
Thank you for the reply.
I do indeed pre-shape before shaping. Doesn't seem to help.
Slashing. I use a proper lathe and I go in at a greater than 45 degree angle but all that seems to happen is that the surface is slashed and the weight of the dough spreads the slash immediately. I know it's a fairly high hydration but others seem to manage with higher hydrations.
It's bugging me. Maybe it shouldn't but it is!
what type of flour are you using? with that nice and open of a crumb, i am a little surprised by what you are describing happening when you score the bread (and that happens even when you score it cold, straight from the fridge, correct?). the crumb does not look over-proofed to me. i’m wondering if a stronger flour (or lower hydration) would help with the dough’s “integrity”, cohesiveness, etc.
just a thought.
-c
also: how do you steam? i’m noticing the crust is quite uniformly thick along the top, makes me wonder if there is not enough steam to let the bread spring, like the crust is forming too quickly.
-c
Right now it's boiling water in a pan at the bottom of the oven because I'm baking in temporary accommodation.
At home though I have two ovens which can introduce steam during the bake. Unfortunately, while the crust is beautifully blistered, golden and thick, still no ears!
Thank you for your thoughts.
Yes it happens like that out of the fridge also.
I use what is described as 'strong bread flour' or 'very strong bread flour' which you would have thought would do the job on structure and development.
I think you're definitely right about lowering the hydration. Trouble is, if I do that, I feel I'm defeated! Also, another thing about that which puzzles me is this. If I make a 65% hydration dough, it is not easy to stretch and fold. How does one overcome that conundrum?
Anyway, I shall have to admit defeat and go with a 65% loaf next time and see what happens. But I do worry about a closer crumb with none of the big holes I love.
well, i would agree that that flour sounds like it should be sufficiently strong... i am truly stumped :(
it does make me wonder, though, if you could do more to develop your 70-75% hydration dough? push those stretch and folds a little farther, add more of them, etc.? if it is not that the flour is insufficiently strong, is still seems like the resulting dough is not as strong as you might like.
but: i also wonder how you might get over the sense that lowering hydration is a defeat? the water that a batch of flour can hold depends on so many things other than the baker's skill. when i moved from sea level to 5300ft, where it is very dry, i had to increase all my hydrations by ~5% (in bakers' percents: so from 75% to 80%, for instance), but it's not like it made me an automatically better baker, lol!
for stretching and folding lower-hydration: i just do everything slower. like: when pulling the dough for the stretch part, i wait a lot longer and let it gradually stretch. i always try to pull the dough almost to the limit of tearing, but not beyond. of course, that is a learning process.
another crazy suggestion: have you tried proofing seam-side down and then baking seam-side up? that takes one's scoring skills out of the equation. some of my best ears have happened when i've baked seam-side up. but as i've said, i'm no ear expert :)
also, fwiw: my understanding is that most home ovens have automatic venting, so i would be suspicious of your current, temporary set-up for steam. but: you say the same happens with a true steam-injection oven that you usually use, so i agree that is probably not the culprit. curious if you've ever baked in a closed vessel (doesn't have to be a fancy dutch oven; an oven-safe and reasonably shatter-proof dish with a baking sheet on top can work), just to see if the (possibly) increased steam makes a difference in your oven spring.
-c
Apologies for the late reply and thank you so much for your thoughts and taking the time to put them down.
I relented today and tried a lower hydration. 65%.
I got basically the same results although it has to be said I got my son to do the bulk ferment and he wasn't quite on the money with the aliquot jar so there was bit of guesswork involved in the rise.
Anyway, importantly, I baked one fairly quickly after final shape. When I scored it, the dough still fell away in a way that wasn't encouraging. The final loaf was delicious but no ears.
Weirdly, I stuck the second loaf from the same batch in the fridge for a couple of hours just because I didn't have time to bake it. I'm not sure it behaved any different when slashed, but I did slash the loaf closer to the middle and also at less of an angle. Anyway, as you can see from the pic, the slightest hint of an ear which is so much of a triumph as far as I'm concerned!
The thing I noted is that the first loaf obviously went in a much hotter oven as it's much darker. The second one went in a cooler oven, probably about 200 rather than 250. I wonder whether this gives the bread a bit more time to rise through.
I don't know. So many variables aren't there. But I shall experiment with a less fierce oven next time and see if that helps. And I must say, 65% hydration didn't affect the holes in the loaf which remain nice and open.
glad that dropping hydration has been a worthwhile experiment. fwiw, i definitely have better oven spring when i bake straight from the fridge. i try to do that with all my free-form loaves now.
i’m still wondering about the possible effect of steam. i recently switched from baking my boules in a small-ish covered metal pot (a Dansk dutch oven) to an unglazed ceramic cloche. my oven spring went way down. i think either because the cloche is much taller, so more space for the steam to dilute in, or because the stoneware is slightly permeable. now i’m trying to introduce more steam inside the cloche (i like other things about the crust the cloche produces, or i would go back to the old pot).
anyway: long story, but i look at your crusts and they remind me of my under-steamed cloche-baked loaves. i wonder if more steam would help your breads open up more in those crucial first 10-20 min in the oven.
of course, the flavor/texture are what really matter, not the aesthetics of the shape!
hope that helps,
c