Starter feeding ratios
I've come to the conclusion that there seem to be two schools of thought with regard to SD starter feeding ratios. I'm talking about maintenance refreshes here, not levain builds.
Assuming a 100% hydration starter for simplicity, one school seems to suggest a 1/1/1 or 1/2/2 ratio (starter/flour/water) and this would be good for twice or even once a day feeding. Proponents of this are eg Jeffrey Hamelman, Tom Cucuzza (the Sourdough Journey).
The other school prefers much bigger ratios and usually twice a day, eg 1/5/5 Maurizio Leo (the Perfect Loaf) and many others.
The above are examples of ambient regimes, but I think the same basic principles apply with refrigerated starter storage.
I used to be in the second camp, but now I'm not so sure. I think my starter has not been acidic enough and I'm wondering if some residence time at a lower pH is a good thing for a starter, which is what you will get in the first camp.
What are your thoughts?
Lance
There's also the 1:10:10 feeding as described by Ginsberg in The Rye Baker for his rye sour culture.
I've been using that ratio and usually feed it once at 1:10:10 before I start a rye recipe, as he recommends. Otherwise, it lives in the fridge. It has had some neglect (six weeks w/o food once) but it bounced back after feeding. It also seems pretty acidic, but I haven't measured the TTA.
Hi Lance,
About 2 1/2 years ago, I converted my white liquid starter to a firm rye culture after experiencing a weakness in my starter over time. I've since discovered that I was feeding the starter at too low a ratio. I got the rye culture feeding regimen from is book Bread. The rye culture regimen has been strong and reliable. I can make a different levain type over a couple of feeds.
Hamelman was kind enough to comment on his rye regimen here: Starter maintenance | The Fresh Loaf
You can see my post about my starter issues here: Solved my starter issue | The Fresh Loaf
Cheers,
Gavin
So even with the rye we have Ginsberg at 1:10 and Hamelman at 1:2?
Lance
I tried different starters with different feeding ratios, Lance, and all of them work very well. Both ratios and timing depend on temperature, of course.
Some are acidic from birth, others are very mild by nature, it does not depend on feeding ratios but on microflora.
Once a day required feeding it 1:20, it was a stiff whole grain starter kept at 27-30C, cannot be refrigerated below 10C. I prefer to keep/mature such starters at 12-15C, to feed them twice a week. The good thing about them is that they are immediately available, no refreshment is necessary prior to use.
But my main starter is liquid, fed 1:1, i.e. 200g starter, 80g flour, 120g water. It matures in 4 to 12 hours at 25-27C, keeps refrigerated very well for months without losing quaIity. Must be refreshed 3 times in a row prior to use ater long refrigeration which takes one full day. But I do not mind. I love that starter because it has high acid load (my husband loves pronounced sourness in bread and pancakes) and huge leavening power.
I do not believe in 100% hydration starters. To me, 100% hydration is good for preferments, for leavens or bread doughs, including ciabattas, pancakes and waffles, where you can watch the dough rising to the max and punch it down (or stir it) in time to protect its gluten. You can inoculate them at any ratio and let them ferment for as long as your heart desires provided you never let them fall, stir them as soon as the top surface rises to the max and begins to flatten and recede. Then it can rise again (up to 5times) or be refrigerated for several days.
This does not apply to rye, of course. Rye starters are a different world.
KAF sells a sharply acidic starter with good gassing power in wet form, it guarantees sourness in bread. I assume it is the one that Jeffrey uses in his baking. They say a 100% hydration starter
It looks nice and bubbly when ready to be fed again (or used). Their flour is strong and it is rather cold, so it does not fall easily.
Liquid starters and stiff starters protect gluten by their very nature, they do not fall and do not require stirring or punch downs.
Build a levain at a ratio of... 1:1.25:0.2?
E.g.
He then uses 225g in the dough and retains 20g starter for next time. So his levain build and starter maintenance are done at the same time.
He does not bake daily. Purely for starter maintenance, he feeds it 1:4, once a day. Something like 50s:100rf:85w.
He discards all but 20g, uses that 20g for a levain build and keeps back 20g to maintain daily?
Do you think keeping that 20g in the fridge to do a big levain build once a week is an ok maintenance regardless? I realise if possible a daily feed keeping ones starter at room temperature is ideal but how much is lost with a once a week big feed as a pre-ferment and starter maintenance in one?
Abe, he tells us with his own words, that his starter is whole grain rye, fed 10s:16w:20rf. Daily.
re: refrigeration
By this he tells us that his starter's microflora survives refrigeration, at least he doesn't notice any changes in aroma, taste, acidity, gassing power, etc. of his starter after refrigeration for up to 3 weeks when he travels and he travels at least several times per year I guess.
re: levain
This means that when he builds levains or starters based on non-rye flour or non-whole-grain-rye, he continues to feed his mother culture as usual and some of the discard goes towards building a levain or a different-flour-based starter for some breads.
Specifically, answering your question about keeping a 20g sample in the fridge taking it out only once a week. I know that it would work, but only in two cases 1) very liquid starter, i.e. it can have 10-11g of flour in it and at least 3x that much water. 2) a stiff wheat based starter floating in a large amount of water. You feed it, then place it in a room temperature water in a jar and wait for it to float. Once it floats, refrigerate. A week later you can fish it out, rinse it and use it.
First of all do not do a big feed. Do a small feed (1:1 or 1:2 max) or a series of small feeds to accumulate the amounts necessary for baking. Or else you risk to lose the original microflora of the starter and overwhelm it with the flora of the flour. I find that, for my starter for example, it restores fully only after a series of 3 feeds, each 1:1, in 24 hours. I have to prepare for baking 24 hours before I want to initiate a levain or a bread dough.
Second, how much is lost depends on the specifics of your starter. Some species of sourdough microbes survive cold better than others. Some will even multiply, grow in numbers when kept in refrigerator, while others don't.
I don't know why Jeffrey refrigerates a young starter when there is a minimum number of yeast and bacterial cells. They will not grow in numbers while refrigerated! They will die off. I guess he does it in order to keep its pH relatively high and alcohol content relatively low.
San-Francisco sourdough culture is famous for being sensitive to cold and should never be refrigerated, for example, that is why it is typically found in bakeries and almost never found in homemade starters which are usually refrigerated in between bakes. Its yeast dies off astonishingly quickly when refrigerated and its bacteria dies off like so:
So, for your specific starter it might be an OK maintenance regimen. Test it, by keeping one batch at room temp and another refrigerated and run that experiment for two-three weeks, and compare them at the end. See if anything changes for your starter due to living in the refrigerator vs living at room temperature.
I'm going to try taking it out of the fridge a day or two before baking and giving it a few feeds before going onto the levain just to see the difference.
BTW i've noticed my starter is much stronger refrigerating when peaked! I used to refrigerate it when after a couple of hours and it got very sluggish. Now I allow it to bubble up and even after two to three weeks it can handle a big feed in a levain no problem. I still want to try giving it a feed or two just to see.
I do this, I might keep even less starter in the fridge. I do notice that a two-stage build makes it a bit stronger than just a single feed... But honestly, just having a few grams on the bottom of the jar and feeding with, say, 50+50g and using 100g for a bread directly after a single feed also works great (aka the "scrapings method" somewhat popularized by Jack Sturgess). When I was baking more frequently, I would feed the starter approximately once a week, and then whenever I bake I take some of the starter to make a levain for the bread dough. This way the activity was a little more predictable, but takes a little more work and planning. My starter is 100% hydration wholegrain rye.
Mariana covered what I was about to say :)
culture feeding.jpg
Abe, that's the ratio for the final levain build of many of his sourdoughs. His regimen for feeding his rye culture to perpetuate it is a stiff rye as described in his comments. The rye culture is different than the required levain build for the dough mix. I made a quick reference chart. It's fed once a day and lives on the counter.
Cheers,
Gavin
I haven't delved too much into his rye starter. Generally, with my starter, I'll build up about 80-100g and it'll live in the fridge. Good enough for a week or two. Will take off a little bit of starter for a levain build. Seems to work ok but always interested in the science of maintaining a starter for ideal results.
Hi Lance
I have found the best way for me is approx 6g old starter, 40g water, 50g flour. 1/6.66/8.33
I do this on a daily basis and it is good enough to make stunning batches of bread for my Wednesdays and Saturdays markets.
I am in London and keep the starter in the kitchen , 16-18C in winter and upwards of 20C in summer, when I might need to refresh a few times per day.
The flour is a mix of freshly milled Gilchester rye grain and shipton organic white. All discards are used to make rye bread.
I find this gives me a versatile way of buildi my levain in three stages over 24 hours. Personally I think every method is as goood, as long as the starter has its routine - eg when I come back from holidays it takes a few bakes for it to re establish itself!
Thanks for all your replies. It seems there's no right or wrong answer - bakers and presumably starters are happy with feed ratios of 1:1 right through to 1:10.
Maybe your starter just adapts to whatever feed ratio you give it!
Lance