Aiming for taller, rounder loaves
Hi there,
I've been baking sourdough for a couple of years and probably bake two or three times a week (focaccia, babka and crusty sourdough loaves). I'm mostly satisfied with my loaves - I tend to get a nice crisp crust, and a decent crumb, but I'd quite like the interior to be a bit lighter/more tender. I'd also like more height/roundness in my loaves, but I'm not sure what to change in my method to achieve this - in well over 100 loaves with varying recipes, I've rarely had a loaf any taller or with better upward oven spring than the one pictured below. The slices tend to be long, not tall.
My typical recipe usually looks something like this:
-> 10-30% freshly milled grain (typically some combination of rye, spelt and wheat, no sifting)
-> High protein (~14%) bread flour
-> Between 70-80% hydration
-> 2% salt
-> 20% inoculation
-> 30-1hr autolyse
-> Mix in starter, 30 minute rest (all fermentation is @26-28deg C)
-> Mix in salt, 30 minute rest
-> 2 coil folds, spaced 30 minutes apart
-> 3 coil folds spaced 1 hour apart
-> Typically another hour wait until the dough looks risen a bit jiggly (but not a crazy amount)
-> Gentle coil fold onto counter and round with bench scraper, 20 minute rest
-> final shape (typically as batard) and into banneton
-> at this point I either rest the dough in the banneton for 30 minutes or put it straight into the fridge overnight (<5degC)
I spray the loaf, score with a lame (usually a double slash) and bake in a pre-heated iron cloche (similar to challenger but not as heavy) at 230 (have tried up to 250) for 20 minutes with lid on and 30 minutes with lid off. My oven is a fan oven.
I feel like my bread is decent but I know it can be better (I live near an excellent bakery which uses fresh milled grain and the loaves are tall and round). I'm not sure what I need to be doing differently. I have wondered if :
- I am building too much strength into my dough (not enough extensibility)?
- I'm not quite nailing the fermentation - perhaps I can be pushing it a bit further?
- My shaping is not quite up to par? Although it typically sits pretty strong after I've shaped it and when it comes out of the banneton
- The bread flour/freshly milled flour is adding some limitations/I need to adjust technique for this?
- Something to do with my oven/cloche set up is limiting oven spring?
I wonder if anybody has any thoughts on my technique/recipe? Any help is much appreciated :)
Thank you,
James
Chewy crumb is gluten. Reduce the gluten get a softer crumb. You could get there two ways, add a greater % of low gluten flour, replace the 14% bread flour with a flour that has less gluten.
‘Beautiful looking bread!
Thanks for replying ! If I were to continue using the same bread flour, would a longer fermentation, or more water assist with a softer crumb? Or is it inevitable that a higher protein content will result in a chewier loaf?
My focus was on your chewy crumb comment. Less water and gluten will give you a softer crumb - that and a tight skin on your boule should aid your shape, but I suspect it will be at the expense of some of the structure you are aiming for.
I wondered about this conflict myself. I'll aim first for the tall, round loaf, before I focus more on texture :).
I don't see a mention of the hydration level for your bread. All other factors being equal, higher hydration typically leads to slack doughs while lower hydration typically leads to firm doughs. Maybe back down a few percentage points on hydration to firm up the dough. That could contribute to higher loaves.
Paul
Hi there ! I have tried hydrations ranging from 70-80%. While the dough has been much easier to handle at 70%, I still haven't achieved much loft in the final loaf. Perhaps, with the lower hydration, I need to allow it to ferment for longer or I'm shaping it too tightly?
Jibs, Welcome to TFL.
Please see this comment and the included links about how to create a tight gluten skin or "sack" that helps reduce lateral spread, and thereby promotes a taller loaf.
https://www.thefreshloaf.com/comment/489849#comment-489849
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It would also help to fill out your location in your user profile so people don't have to ask on every thread about which country's flour you are using, as there is so much variability world-wide.
Thank you. I've added my location (UK) to my user profile.
Thanks also for the link. More info on shaping...
For the pre-shape... I gently do a final coil fold of the dough and with the last fold place it onto the counter... then I'll use the bench scraper to round the dough and get a taught skin on the outside. Usually after I've done the pre-shape, the dough looks domed and I can touch the top without my hand sticking at all. I'll then rest it for 20 minutes, during which time it flattens/relaxes a little but not completely.
For the final shape, I essentially follow the process used by FullProofBaking in her original open crumb sourdough video. I flour the top of the dough and invert it on the counter, gently tug it into a rectangle shape, and then fold once over a third, and then the other side over the top of that. Then I'll roll it up and seal the ends.
Sometimes I stitch the back of the dough once it is in the banneton. Perhaps something else I could do is tuck my fingers behind the dough and pull it towards me to tighten the skin even more, once it has been shaped but before placing in the banneton. I'll try that today...
In addition to the comments mentioned above, scoring has a significant impact on the shape of the final loaf. It looks like you use one long score along the length of the loaf. This causes the loaf to open out and then (hopefully) spring up, which gives the nice look of a bloom. On the flip side, it can also result in a flatter loaf that is wide through the middle and narrower on the ends.
By scoring across the loaf multiple times, you cause the loaf to initially extend before springing. The straps between the scores keep the dough from flattening when initially put in the oven. It results in a more uniform, round shape and a more uniform size to the slice from one end of the loaf to the other. On the flip side, the straps also can prevent the loaf from getting really tall. In my experience, the across the loaf scoring also results in a more uniform, sandwich loaf type crumb.
Here’s a blog post that shows the loaf shape. I usually use 5 or 7 scores. https://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/70731/40-whole-grain-emmer-and-einkorn
Here are a couple posts that show the contrast between the two scoring methods. Basically the same dough weight and same bannetons used for each bake.
https://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/69910/semolina-bread-pate-fermente
https://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/69828/overnight-heirloom-red
Good luck!
Thanks for your useful comment and for sharing the links to your beautiful bread. The loaf in my picture has two overlapping scores (each approx 2/3 along the length of the loaf). I started scoring this way as I thought it reduced the horizontal spread a little - but I still don't get much vertical rise. What I'm ideally aiming for is how your heirloom red loaves look. A single score with a big vertical bloom :).
Try that recipe, or as mentioned above, try dropping your hydration down another 3-5% (I’m usually in the 67-70% range). Not sure how UK flour compared to US for hydration needs. My All Purpose flour runs about 12% protein and bread flour about 13%.
A few other thoughts…
Replace some of your high protein bread with all purpose (11-12% protein), especially if you’re at 10-15% whole grain. It will lighten it up.
Keep whole grain at 10-15% until you get the loaf characteristics you want, especially if using rye or spelt. Pick a % and keep it constant until you get it right.
Replace early coil folds with 3 sets of bowl kneading spaced 10 minutes apart. I personally like to make sure I have good gluten developed early and then coax it along with bowl S&F. Others use coil folds. I’m not set up to do them so haven’t really tried coil folds yet. Here’s the technique I use for kneading early. https://youtu.be/qkfJoNMZHdw
Thanks for these tips. I'll try reducing the hydration a bit, although I'm quite keen to stick with 25% whole grain as this is really the least amount I want to incorporate. I'll also try your form of kneading which I assume is designed to create more strength than the coil folds.
As mentioned, keep the whole grain component at a low level, at least for a trial. I would use 10% - and use wheat as it has more gluten. I'd even sift out the large bran with a fine sieve - it's surprising how even a small amount of bran will affect loaf loft negatively.
It's a fact that higher protein bread flour will give a taller loaf, but it may be at the expense of a chewier crumb, as you have found. Which bread flour are you using BTW?
Other considerations:
Lance
Hi Lance, thanks for the tips. I'm currently using Leckford Estate Strong White bread flour - this is 14% protein and is sold at Waitrose. Before this I tried Shipton Mill No. 4 and Mungowells bread flour (I'm tempted to go back to this as it is a local mill).
Again, I'm really wanting to include at least 25% whole grain. The picture of the loaf I posted had just 15% though (still no sifting).
My starter is definitely nice and active. I tend to feed it at least once a day (keeping it at room temperature), but when I'm making a dough I will always feed it once the night before and once in the morning of making the dough with a 1:5:5 ratio (before waiting for it to double again).
I do have an aliquot jar but I rarely use it... I will give a go with the next bake.
I've used that Leckford Estate flour myself in the past. I never found it to be particularly strong or thirsty, though it was a while ago - it may have improved.
I'd try a different bread flour to see if it improves matters - protein content isn't the whole story. I'd try Carrs bread flour (available at Sainsburys) or Marriages strong (not the organic, which isn't as strong).
Also I think you need to be more flexible at what might be considered a trial stage. You want improvement, but appear to be reluctant to change anything.
Lance
Thank you. I'm actually happy to try/change things, I was just hoping to retain the wholegrains :). Next time I will try 15% and sift out some of the bran, and see if this makes a difference, keeping all other things the same.
Here is today's loaf. I can't cut into it as it's for a friend. Again, pretty happy with it. I'd just like it to be taller/rounder.
This is a recipe I'd quite like to stick with and try to improve (although happy to make small changes to hydration, etc.)
I really tried to tighten the outer skin of the loaf as much as possible when I shaped it. It felt tight, but perhaps I can get it tighter. A slightly lower hydration and longer fermentation as well maybe? Too many things to try...
400g total flour
25% fresh milled whole grain (5% rye, 10% spelt, 10% wheat)
75% strong bread flour
73% water
5% honey
15% mixed toasted seeds
2.3% salt
Looks good! Love the color in the crust and nice blistering. 👍
Suggestions for a couple tweaks…. 15% WW, 5% spelt, 5% rye; drop to 68% water (with honey you’re pushing 78% in recipe above).
In all fairness, that is a pretty good looking loaf for 25% whole grain. I may have missed it, but how is your oven setup during a bake? Dutch Oven or baking stone? Positioned where in the oven? Top heating element on or off? Shield in place of top element? Steam or no Steam? It almost looks like you may not have enough bottom heat compared to top heat…
Yes, that sounds like a good suggestion. I didn't really consider that the honey is comparable to water in terms of hydration.
My oven seems to be a basic fan oven. There is no control over the top/bottom element - although only the top element is visible (I don't know if there is a bottom element). I use an oven thermometer so I know that it gets up to temperature.
I use the iron cloche pictured below, it is not very heavy duty itself, but has a flat bottom and I assume the lid does a reasonable job at trapping the steam. I place this on top of a pizza steel for more thermal mass. I pre-heat all of this for around 45 mins to an hour. I have no idea if this is a good set up or not !
The only additional steam I add is by spraying the loaf and into the cloche before sealing it and putting it into the oven to bake.
And thank you, I was pleased with the crust !
If you have an extra rack, I would put a cookie sheet in the very top position. It will act as a heat shield for the top of the cloche. I like the oven steel. Pre-heat the oven for 45 minutes with the top shield in place to make sure the oven steel is up to temp. Then cook as normal. I think you might be getting too much top heat.
I'll try this - is the idea to slow the development of the crust to allow further expansion? How about not pre-heating the lid of the cloche as well ? Does the initial rise mostly come from the heat of the surface below?
Yes…. I don’t think you need to start with a cool lid. You want rapid steam formation. The steam will help cool the lid. The idea is to get more heat into the loaf from the bottom up instead of the top down. By shielding the top element, this allows more heat to be conducted through the bottom of the cloche from the steel. This helps drive the gas up.
Here’s my setup…. I have both a top and bottom element. I use the bottom pan for steam generation and cook directly on the stone.
Interesting ! Do you have the fan switched off when you bake? I'll try adding in a barrier. I'm going to have to try not to make too many changes at once so I know what makes a difference !
I keep my fan off for the entire bake.
Good luck!
I'm impressed.
Looks great!
Thank you all so much for your helpful comments and suggestions. I'll report in after I've tried some of these :).