Poolish - miniscule amount of IDY?
Hello, many of the German formulas I use call for tiny amounts - 0.1g - of fresh yeast (Brotdoc describes it as a "large rice grain size bit). I use IDY and so try to weigh out 1/3 of that on my 0.001 scale but at that level I've no confidence in either the precision or accuracy of such a tiny amount. When I have done it, we are talking dry-yeast particles I can count on one hand and I've had "Vorteigs" that were essentially inert going into the main doughs.
Even if I go with 40-50% of fresh yeast at this level, again, no confidence in any of the measurements.
Is there such a thing that at these amounts, there's basically no such thing as "scaling," i.e., .1 IDY is about the same in terms of performance as .1 g fresh, or would I get a really overripe poolish, all other things being equal, if using such an amount?
Use a solution in water.
Take a measurable quantity of yeast. For discussion purposes let's say 1 packet (envelope) or 7g. Add it to 500ml of water and stir until the yeast dissolves.
7ml of this solution is 0.1g of yeast. If you measure out 10ml of the solution, you would have 0.14g of yeast - would that make a noticeable difference in the bread results? This method does result in waste - nearly an entire packet.
How many grams of flour in the recipe are associated with 0.1g of yeast?
Thank you Semolina, I did think of the dilution method and this is going to sound really lame...I hated the notion of wasting the little critters. Man, I've changed since brewery days. I was tasked with counting yeast viability and vitality, among other things. Must feel guilty, lol.
Ha! Honest to god I didn't see the closing to your 2nd paragraph until just now, Too funny.
40 g flour.
1% of the flour for fresh yeast and divide by 3 if substituting dried yeast. But I very rarely bake with commercial yeast and far more familiar, and comfortable with, using sourdough.
However I do not think you need to worry about over fermenting too much. A small pinch is fine and use when it appears ready. Making the poolish just before bed will give you plenty of time come the next day to catch it in time. There are ways to measure very accurately though one of which is using the dissolving in water method. If you dissolve 1g (more easily weighable) in 100g of water then it'll be very easy to know how much of that water to use in the total water of the poolish to get the right amount of yeast. So for 0.1g yeast just use 10g of that yeast water mix in the total water for the poolish.
To measure 1g of yeast or salt then it's best not to tare out the scales. Just put the bowl or cup on the scales and add in a gram. It registers better. But as semolina_man says... one packet of yeast is 7g (and that's near enough the standard) so you can go about it that way.
Thanks Abe. See above re the dilution SOP. Great minds and all that, lol. I used to go with 1/4 from Hamelman (1/3 for active dry yeast) but I did wonder if this was way overthinking it. And your last paragraph, didn't think of it but I understand now. Or I should say I see in practice why that's better, but I don't understand why it is and now I'm curious - that "first" mass from 0, when you've got say 0.0, add in some, no change then all of a sudden you've got 0.14 - what is that, with digital scales?
Just a note to say thanks again for your post Abe - as I mentioned above I wasn't too precise with the amount of IDY and as yo said, plenty of window to observe. Came out really well (posted in your community bake thread - thank you once again for that as well).
Should be very forgiving. Don't think it'll be make or break if you don't catch it in a very specific window. 1/3rd of 1% of the flour gives one plenty of time and as long as it looks and smells good it'll make a nice tasting bread.
My pleasure. Going to take a look at your bake now...
Paul, of course, scaling applies, as usual. Oh the other side, with such tiny amounts of yeast it's important to
1) bloom the yeast before adding flour, maybe even activate your iady before adding it to poolish. There are 20 billion cells in one gram of yeast, more than enough for 140g of water (715 million cells in each tsp of water used for poolish). Use warm water. It is important.
2) make sure that your room temperature is the same as in the recipe, or adjust yeast accordingly. Germans define room t differently, it is colder than in the US or even in France.
3) make sure that your vorteig looks and smells as described in the recipe: max volume, bubbly and flat (no longer domed) top surface, fruity alcoholic, similar to cognac, especially like calvados, apple brandy. If yours isn't then adjust the amount of your yeast experimentally, so that your vorteig looks like that at the end of twelve hours at your room temperature.
At room t, every six degrees Celsius difference, i.e between 18C (room t in Germany) and 24C (room T in the US), means twice the rate of fermentation (two times more gassing power of yeast). So if your vorteig is ready in six hours instead of twelve, then cut down the yeast further.
Also, his one gram may mean anything between 0.51 and 1.49g, his three grams of fresh yeast may mean anything between 2.51g and 3.49g if he uses a regular scale. So, truly, determine from experience how much of your yeast at your room temperature your flour needs to give you ripe vorteig in twelve hours.
Brotdoc's ripe vorteig:
His instructions
(1)
Pre-dough:
390 g wheat flour T80 or 1050
390 g water
3 g yeast
Mix well, leave to mature for about 1 hour at room temperature and then store in the refrigerator for 11-12 hours. The sponge should be riddled with bubbles and smell fruity and alcoholic
Source: ciabatta grande
(2)
Pre-dough:
140 g wheat flour 1050
140 g lukewarm water
1 small piece of fresh yeast about the size of a grain of rice
Dissolve the small piece of yeast in the water in a bowl, add the flour and mix well. Cover with foil and leave to mature at room temperature for 12 hours.
Source: Halteraner Graubrot
Thanks Mariana. As I mentioned to Abe it came out well but a ton of wonderful info and I appreciate it. Will experiment.
Can you tell me where you got Brotdoc's Vorteig procedure? The blog, or one of his books?
Paul, I added links to the articles in the commentary above. It's from his blog. I don't own his books.
I only added his photo and descriptions of his poolish because you said that yours ends up "essentially inert" at the end of its fermentation period. It should not be so. A poolish is a poolish, when ready, it is always at the max volume, bubbly and has a typical apple brandy smell.
There is an article about German vorteig, since you are interested in what it typical in German baking, in wikipedia. https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vorteig
Have you seen it? Compare it with what Brotdoc does. His methods are a bit different, essentially what French bakers do as described by Didier Rosada in Michel Suas's manual:
- 100% hydration, 12-15hrs at 20-22C, 0.1% fresh yeast based on the amount of flour used in the poolish
- hot water (50-55С), 1-2 hrs at room T, then stirred/punched down and refrigerated for up to 48hrs. It looks like this when ready:
described on pages 84-85 in Michel Suas (2009) Advanced Bread and Pastry.
Oh, thanks mariana. For some reason I couldn't see any pics or links - just text - but I see them now.
Like Lutz Geißler, Brotdoc tends to bring it in with higher temp water, up to 45C and allow a falling temp to "Raumperatur", but he will many times also just add in room temp water. Unlike Lutz, he will also go a bit simpler and have a 12 hr.Vorteig with many of his recipes, whereas Lutz typically calls for a bit higher temp, and a longer ferment, with lower % inoculations (e.g., 0.04% frischefe). Yes, I know an "inert" Vorteig isn't any good.
Lutz also talks about "optimal" temps for things like rye sauerteigs, which are more in line with what I use from French techniques (24.5-26 C), but ferments cooler in practice in a bid to accommodate the limitations of the average home baker.