February 15, 2022 - 1:20pm
Difficulty bolting home-milled spelt flour.
I just don't get much yield. I've tried going finer, really pretty tight, and the mill starts to bind up fairly quickly. If I go coarser, through the 1/30" sieve, I get nothing really, all held back.
I'm trying to get a basic "medium" spelt ersatz, anything close to the German T 1050. Even if I wanted to do the whole spelt/white spelt blending v. bolting, I've seen no white spelt.
Any suggestions? Anyone successful with this?
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Have you tried tempering the grain?
Grain that has been pre-conditioned by tempering gives finer particles vs dry milled.
Sorry Mike, not familiar with the process. Would you mind explaining it a bit? Many thanks.
Interesting. Quick Google shows it is about adding water to grain to soften the bran. Some sources mention it is a process of going either way.
I would've thought drying it out more helps it shatter more.
When I sprouted grain, I got very diff results based on how much I dried it out after.
Life was easier and flour was fine powder when it was dried out a lot more. But hat required a lot more patience.
But a wetter grain allowed for taking bran off in almost sheaves during conical burr milling... which I understand is a potential benefit if you want to separate it out.
You as well, thanks much!
I'm not a miller myself but grain can be tempered by soaking in water to increase the moisture content which will toughen the bran and soften the endosperm. This might be done in one or two or more passes, each lasting several hours. With a softer endosperm finer flour particles will result.
I think there are few posts here and there within the TFL archives. Have a look..
OK, thanks very much Mike. I'll take a look.
except for things like malts in a coffee grinder. However i've heard grinding on fine the first time isn't the best way. Rather, run it through first on a coarser setting first then running it through again on a finer setting works much better. That's for getting a finer grind. As for bolted i'm going to venture passing some of it through a sieve half way between coarse and medium, to remove some bran, then mill it again on a medium setting.
Thanks Abe. You remind me - I think I remember Danny talking about it now - but I'd forgotten. I'll have to try it.
Could be here or on breadtopia (or both). But i do see the logic behind it. Gradual steps and try bolting it at a stage where it's easier to remove some of the bran.
One day i'll treat myself to a grain mill. Would be nice to grind ones own flour. Another step to homemade bread.
That makes sense. I also wonder if I should just get a 1/20" sieve. I happened to just see Central Milling here in the States offers a Type 85 spelt, as well as a white spelt. That's close to the German T 1050, so may just go that way - though it's much more fun to do it at home!
I've loved milling at home. Gives me something to do in all those hours I can't possibly bake more bread, lol. Hope you find one sometime.
You've gone beyond me with numbers and codes to grinds and grades :)
I don't know if my thoughts on the subject will help but spelt with a poor gluten might be better when very fine. As we know coarse flour isn't as efficient at producing good gluten. Why further prevent that? What's more... a while back I found some true spelt (another discussion for another time but there is more than one type of spelt) and it came as a very fine grind and made a lovely smooth dough.
Hope in some way this helps you make a decision. You can always experiment with different grinds.
Sorry Abe, I'm stuck in German French land. "German T 1050" wheat or spelt corresponds roughly to "French T80 or T110",** both of which correspond, roughly, given it's not a roller mill process, to a bolted or "medium wheat flour."
**Depending on the source; I've seen both equivalences given. Drax millers in Bavaria give FR T80=DE T1050, so that's what I use.
I did some experiments bolting last year with hard wheat. I don't have a grain moisture meter, so I ended up using the process and heuristics outlined in this [thread]. It made a noticeable difference in bran separation. TFL users bwraith and proth5 have some excellent threads discussing milling and bolting in some detail from a number of years ago, and it is worth a search:
Also, of interest (discussion):
I will bolt some spelt this week with a stack of #30, #40 and #50 sieves and measure the extraction rate.
Fantastic, thanks very much. I'll read through these tomorrow. Given stones, I'd wondered how one deals with those and the tempering process but I'm sure this is covered, thanks again. And looking forward to what you end up with.
Just an encouraging note, and a nod of thanks to everyone - not in any way repeatable but I took the considerable "middlings" from the rather impoverished bolting run today and sifted them through one of my basic kitchen sieves. Worked beautifully, yielding up quite a bit and leaving behind large, flaky bits of bran (does spelt contain husk material, too?). Blended it well with today's bolted, and it's now a lovely, very light beige-brown hue. On the right track.
I get about 84% extraction with a #50 sieve using a two pass milling approach, where the first pass is set very coarse to produce cracked grain and a fair amount of powder, and the second pass is close to "just ticking". This seems to reduce temperature. With hard wheat I often apply slight pressure (Paul Lebeau does not recommend it for Mockmills) once the mill is full, but spelt is so soft it doesn't seem to need it. It would probably be better to re-mill just the retentate, but I try not to make much flour in the first pass.
I then shake everything for 60 seconds in a lidded 12 inch stack of #30, #40, and #50 sieves. Having a coarse-to-fine configuration eases the process significantly, and the larger area sieves are essential. That is usually sufficient, but a little bit of additional flour can be coaxed through with a few scrapes from the flat edge of a dough scraper. I measured 28 g in the #30, 23 g in the #40, and 19 g in the #50. I might try with a #70 to see what I get. I will post some photos of the output later. That's one data point. I haven't measured this before with spelt. From memory, that is a very different distribution than with hard wheats, where there is a much larger amount of middlings.
[update]: add photos
Extraordinary post, thanks so much. I'll be trying it shortly. I don't have a 1/40" screen, only the 1/30" and 1/50". These are plastic (suggested by Danny, love them), but in this line I haven't seen a 1/40". You mentioned you nest your sieves, and cover them which I don't know, and would make life easier - thanks for the idea. What sieves do you use?
A few questions on definitions.
What does "just ticking" mean - pretty strongly finger tight?
Could you explain what you mean by "slight pressure in"
And would you mind telling me what retentate mean? Do you mean you the milling of the bran left after bolting? I've always been afraid to try it, fearing it would really bind up and glass my stones. Would you mind explaining this a bit?
Again, really fantastic and helpful post(s). Thanks for the effort.
Here is a [post] that describes the sieves I use in more detail. I found them via a post from albacore [here].
This is what the process looks like. A 500 g loaf is done in less than one minute (plus time to remove the contents).
Today is the first time I've actually counted, so I chose 60 seconds as a round number, since I knew I would be posting this. It goes pretty quickly and I suspect it may be done a bit sooner than that.
I remember the sieves Danny uses fit on a 5 gallon bucket. Can you stack them? Does a standard 5 gallon bucket lid snap on them?
"Just ticking" is the setting on the mill where the stones first make contact. You can hear the sound in this [video]. Contact makes the top stone jump or skip up and fall back down repeatedly, discussed by barryvabeach a bit more [here]. It is commonly recommended as the finest setting. The thread I referred to in the earlier post describes a process where you can go beyond this setting and apply pressure between the stones once they are buffered by grain. This produces very fine flour, but you have to be very careful to watch and listen to the sound so that you can release them before the mill empties out, or else it will wear down your stones. Mockmill reached out stating they don't recommend this, as it can obviously wear down stones prematurely if you aren't careful.
Retentate is just the stuff retained by the sieve. The general idea is that even coarse milling produces both coarse and fine particles. If the fine particles from the first stage pass through your last sieve, then there is no need to re-mill that part of the flour, which could, in principle, lead to excess starch damage.
> Do you mean you the milling of the bran left after bolting? I've always been afraid to try it, fearing it would really bind up and glass my stones
I've tried milling just the branny flakes and middlings from the coarser sieves. It is tough to break down, but multiple passes from the stones under pressure (as above) can produce a finer bran powder. I generally don't do it because there isn't enough of it to allow time to safely clamp and unclamp the stones, and I'm also not 100% certain that it is beneficial in the final loaf (although I've always been curious). Maybe bran scalds, bran levains and similar approaches are more effective?
I took some photos throughout the milling and sifting process. Here is a more detailed look:
[update: fix typo]
Wow. God. Speechless, thank you. This was incredibly generous of your time and energy. I realize how home milling is such a world unto itself and this is an entire other vein I've got to sit down with to soak it all in. Watching your vid, it's basically what I do but this is nearer the end, once the massager has had at it a la Danny. One thing I have to acknowledge - though I love my mill, it's a very neanderthal (tough Neanderthal) affair - no presets, all my best guess as to repeatability by my hands. I could get a torque meter I guess...but learning to let go is not a bad thing for this particuiar fellow. So, basically, I'm content with a reasonable range of "medium" bolted, and thanks to your comments and those of others, I feel pretty good. Ground "dinkelschrot (groß)" (my Swiss friend is right. Is Dinkel not an awesome word?), then was able to grind much finer whole flour. Doing this then passing through the 1/30" sieve, I am getting 81.8% yield and I'm calling it a day, pretty happy with the result.
So thanks again. Your post is going to get some time with me.
FYI pulsing a high speed bladed coffee/spice mill makes quick work of leftover bran bits. I use it for my final pass after milling whole grains
I hold the sieve with flour and put the sieve and my hand into a plastic bag. I can shake vigorously and the flour falls into the bag which is resting on the table top. No more flying flour dust. My free hand holds the opening of the plastic bag somewhat closely around the wrist of the hand which shakes the sieve.
I bought a medium and a fine sieve. I only use the med sieve because I could not get any whole grain flour through the finer one. The coarser material after the first sifting is reground through the Komo mill 2-3 more times. There is about 6% of the grind that does not pass through the medium sieve at the end. I use all of the grind.