February 2, 2022 - 6:45am
SD Flavor as it relates to PFF%, Time, & Temp
Looking for the opinions of other bakers as it relates to Percentage of Pre-ferment Flour (PFF), duration of fermentation, and temperature in respect to flavor (sour & non-sour).
The following is what I believe. What do you believe?
- Extremely low percentages of PFF will produce the most sour bread flavor. Higher percentages will produce a more non-sour tasting bread.
- This one is controversial. The greatest influence on the sour flavor of a SD bread is the temperature at the time of fermentation and equally so, the duration of that fermentation. NOT the acidity of the starter. In other words, it doesn’t take a super sour starter to make super sour bread. I expect comments on this one :) This one needs clarification. If a SD starter/levain that is not highly acidic is mixed into the Final Dough at a low %PFF and allowed to ferment for a very long time, that dough will build huge amounts of acid. I see no difference between a starter that is fermented long enough to become super acidic and a bread dough that is long fermented. The dough is pushed to near over-fermentation. The challenge is preserving some of the dough strength.
- Obviously extremely low PFF (example 2%) will require much more fermentation time than say, 25%.
- The longer the duration of fermentation, the more sour the flavor. But because of the extended time the dough will be slack and weakened.
- Not only duration of fermentation, but the temperature at the time of fermentation is used to promote either acetic (sharp sour - vinegary) or lactic (smooth sour - yogurt like) sour flavor. Combinations of both are also possible. Similar to wine, there are very distinct variations of the sour flavor of sourdough.
Common sense would think, the more the levain, the more sour the bread. But common sense can be misleading.
What has your experience caused you to believe?
An open mind always has room available to learn…
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Thanks for posting. I'm eagerly following this discussion.
"What do you believe?" I have no beliefs in this realm but only rely on my simple small experiences with way too little experimentation to create a belief.
My typical PFF is 15-20%, BF 2-2.5 hrs in a 78-80dF kitchen, followed ~12-16 hrs. retardation. Almost always with 100% hydration AP flour levain. Regardless of type of bread, this infrequently varies more than a few clicks off center..
I am not a fan of sour dough, rather I use the levain because it gives enhanced flavor and extended life to the bread, and I find it fun and satisfying to use - basically as a leavening agent (as the name suggests).
Further my levain/starter lives in the back of the refrigerator and is only refreshed every week or two, if that. Depending on mood and need, I'll either use it straight away or for a refresh/build for a mix, with the purposefully extra levain getting incorporated int the existing container. Typically there is between 200g-500g of levain occupying real estate in my refrigerator most of the time.
If the current thought is a refrigerated long existing starter or levain contributes to a more sour taste, then my kitchen and levain do not abide by the laws of nature.
“ I'll either use it straight away or for a refresh/build for a mix, with the purposefully extra levain getting incorporated int the existing container.”
Great comment, “I’ll use it straight away”. Almost all bakers feed their starters before making the levain. In many cases this makes sense, since their starters have been left in the fridge for a while.
My starter is fed weekly - like clock work. Think about this.
Once a week (or more if baking regularly) the starter is refreshed.
Without fail the starter is fed 1:1:1 and ferments at 80F for 4 hours. In that time it always triples.
If it were fed another 1:1:1 immediately after the first refresh it will behave exactly the same. Tripling in 4 hr.
The starter can be fed continuously using the criteria above for a week or a year and it will still behave exactly the same.
It seems from above that my starter is at full strength when removed from the fridge. With that in mind it can be used straight from the fridge to build the levain with no loss of strength.
An extra idea -
Once the refrigerated starter is refreshed it is left to ferment at 80F until maturity. Since it is expected to remain in the fridge for a week, an additional bit of flour is stirred into the starter just in case it wants a little fresh food during the chilly rest. Maybe 10-20% more flour, but it is never weighed out.
I keep my starter in the fridge and don’t refresh until there is either almost nothing left or it’s been 3 to 4 weeks of not refreshing. I use it to make a fresh levain and very rarely need to refresh first unless it’s really spent. My starter is kept at 66% hydration.
Food for thought - Some information King Arthur Flour and microbiologist Debra Wink...
Whether you’re looking for a mild sourdough to pair with butter or a tangy, full-flavored bread that will stand up to a rich soup or strong cheese, these are the tweaks that can help you achieve your ideal sourdough.
We recently had the good fortune to attend a class at King Arthur Flour on the science of sourdough. The class, taught by microbiologist Debra Wink, focused on all the different tools the baker has to control the natural sourdough fermentation process.
https://brodandtaylor.com/blogs/recipes/make-sourdough-more-sour
https://brodandtaylor.com/blogs/recipes/make-sourdough-more-or-less-sour-part-2
https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0382/1836/7107/files/How-to-Make-Sourdough-More-or-Less-Sour-II-Printable-Recipe.pdf?v=1590770711
Tony
I throw in my 2 cents (if it's worth that much)...
1) I agree. I regularly switch between a 20% PFF (2-3 hours bulk) and a 3.5% PFF (10-11 hours bulk) on my Country Sourdough recipe depending on schedule. The 3.5% will provide a more pronounced sour flavor and a more noticeable chew than the 20% PFF.
2) You've got a lot in that statement, but generally agree. As bulk temp goes up, sourness goes up assuming all else equal. As bulk time is increased through lower PFF, sourness goes up all else equal. I'm not sure I agree with the "acidity" of the starter statement. That depends a lot on the starter, your maintenance, and when you take the inoculation. For my white flour starter, a full refresh consists of three feedings all at the same ratio. 6 hours, 6 hours, 12 hours. I believe the microbio population at the end of the second 6 hour feed is different than at the end of the 12 hour feed and has a less sour aroma. The organisms that propagate early in a feeding cycle outnumber the slower growers is my assumption. So, all things being equal (recipe, time, temp, PFF%), I think a 3.5% inoculation of the 6 hour feed would produce a less sour bread than a 3.5% inoculation of the 12 hour feed. That being said, I'm not sure I'd be able to tell the difference. If I can time it right, maybe I'll give that a try in the not too distant future. :-)
3) Yes
4) Yes
5) Yes
#2 was edited in the OP, in hopes of explaining that statement more clearly.
“ This one needs clarification. If a SD starter/levain that is not highly acidic is mixed into the Final Dough at a low %PFF and allowed to ferment for a very long time, that dough will build huge amounts of acid, even if the original starter did not. I see no difference between a starter that is fermented long enough to become super acidic and a bread dough that is long fermented. The dough is pushed to near over-fermentation. The challenge is preserving some of the dough strength.”
Since I am a “sour freak”, I used to constantly try to build more acids in my starter. Now my breads are super sour tasting even though the starter shows little indication (taste or smell) of sour. The sour acids are produced during the long fermentation process in the Final Dough. For that reason whole grain, including rye is no longer used as starter feed.
Agree 100%. Where I move beyond my knowledge and into pure speculation is endpoint on the scenario in my example. Based on aromas, I'm guessing that the yeast : lactobacilli (acetic) : lactobacilli (lactic) ratio in my starter at the end of the 6 hour refresh is different than at the end of the 12 hour refresh. What I don't know is if each starter inoculation reaches the same endpoint with a long, slow ferment. They very well might, or at least close enough that I can't tell the difference. Would be a nice experiment to run, and I'm going to try and do that in the next few weeks.
I'm looking for an enriched sandwich loaf with pronounced sourness. I'd like small holes and fairly soft texture. I bake in a pullman pan. I've been using 50% PFF.
I've got to try really small PFF and long warm ferments. That will be my next series of experiments.
How warm? I built a little "proofer" so I can get pretty much whatever I want. I see the Brod & Taylor plan uses 83F.
How long? I'm retired so I can go pretty crazy as long as I can get my sleep.
Any suggestions?
Try 2%PFF and BF 16hr @ 76F.
Use a strong white flour
66% hydration
2% salt
I'll give it a go. My tiny pan allows me to bake about every other day. I've got the B&T formula rising now but I'll try this next.
I have learned to handle really slack dough and since I'm using a pan I have no worries about building enough strength to hold its shape.
Your comments about handling difficulties reminded me of your post on the Easy Peasy method.
Why not mix my dough, S&F, shape, and do the 16 hours in the pan? I guess then I have the issue of it possibly wanting to rise more than the pan might allow. I could imagine the top helping deal with any large bubbles, though I do like the rounded top.
Easy Peasy would work. I use this method almost always now for SFSD.
When fermenting the dough in a pullman that is planned to be baked with the cover on, it is best to cover the pan with plastic and the cover removed. This way you can see the amount of dough rise. If the cover is put on you risk disturbing the top of the dough when/if you remove it to visually check the rise. Also if the bread is rising too much you have the option to bake uncovered. If the dough is not rising very high you can use the cover. This is especially useful when dialing in a specific dough weight for a new type bread.
I used 300g of KAF bread flour, 2% PFF (4% starter), 2% salt, 66% water for a total dough weight of 504g. I hand kneaded it for a few minutes (DT 76F), then put in my 10x10x10cm pan and in the proofer set for 76F. After 14 hours it had filled the pan so I baked it starting with a cold oven set for 350F convection 45 minutes.
The resulting loaf is barely over 10cm high. It expanded to maybe 11cm tall during the bake but then dropped back to 10cm by the end. So, essentially no oven spring.
Does this match your experience with your Easy Peasy SFSD? Thanks for your help.
Adding a picture and a comment. The level of sour is GREAT!
Look to me, Gary!
W
henthe dough is pushed to over-fermentation the sour flavors are produced but the dough is also weakened from so much fermentation. My SFSD pan loaves look like yours. If it is sour, I think you were completely successful.
How would you rate the sour on a scale of 1-10?
Is it sour enough are would you like more?
OH! Another thing -
The pale color of the loaf is normal because of the long ferment. If you want more browning, you could add a bit of Barley Malt.
If 1 is none and 10 is too sour (I've made some bricks that were inedible), I'd put this at about 7 which is right at what I have been seeking. My ability to taste sour seems to vary but today this is really good. The texture isn't bad either, far from a brick. As you can see from the picture, the hole seems seems about right for sandwich bread.
Yes, on the pale color. When my sour taste isn't working well I use the time to brown toast to judge sourness. It amazes me how much fermentation changes browning. A piece of unfermented bread browns on setting 1 in our Panasonic IR toaster oven but a well fermented slice can
My goal is a sour enriched bread. In continuing this experiment I want to try the following.
Not necessarily in that order. This will be an interesting series of experiments.
With the tiny pan and my (possibly excessive) bread consumption, I can easily bake every other day.
Any suggestions on the order to try these?
Gary, it looks like you are on a good track. Have you noticed that sourdough will become more sour tasting on the second, maybe third day?
The malt is an easy fix. I’d start with that and maybe a Tangzhong. You could try 4% of the total flour. Add 5 times as much weight in water for the roux. That’s a safe way to start, IMO.
I like my sour tasting bread a little more salty. Generally use 2.2% salt. It also slows the fermentation a bit which can be a good thing.
Have you tried buttering the bread pan? Caroline, aka TrailRunner taught me that great tip. It makes the crust a tad crunchy and ramps up the flavor a bit. It also helps with the browning of the crust, a great thing…
I have noticed that it will seem more sour on the second day sometimes. I wrote it off to variability in my sense of sour.
I'll try a bit more salt and see how I like it.
I've been using cooking spray. I'll try butter next time.
One thing I do with these breads that make handling easier... I do a set of bowl S&F or coil fold every 60-75 minutes. Just until the dough firms up. I have no issue making hearth loaves from it. In this bake my PFF was 4% and bulk was 8-9 hours. I'd mix and get just a bit of gluten development before bedtime and then do bowl S&F's in the morning until it starts getting "puffy". Let it finish rising and then shape for pans or hearth.
https://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/69828/overnight-heirloom-red
Troy, you wrote. “ 18g Mature Starter Culture - 4%”. Do you realize that your Percentage of Pre-fermented Flour is actually 2% if your starter hydration is 100% hydrated?
2%PFF for 8-9hr at 76F seemed like to little time until I realized that you are also using 15%YW.
Good call Dan! I guess I would be just under 2% PFF. I maintain my white starter at 120% hydration.
Troy, I’m curious. What are the benefits you derive from using 15%YW along with your SD starter? Sounds interesting.
Update -
Just had a thought. What would happen if the levain was mixed with YW instead of plain water? I am a curious sort…
Dan, The short answer is, "I'm not sure." :-)
I started with SD baking just over a year ago, and when I first started, I really struggled understanding starters and getting it consistent. While struggling with getting a starter going, I also learned about YW. Much easier to get it right and had a healthy culture in about 5 days. So, I started spiking all my SD bakes with 15-20% YW just to make sure my dough would leaven. From there, it just became an "If it's not broke..." scenario and adding YW became my normal baking approach.
I've always said I would do a side-by-side bake to understand the impact of the YW. If I had to speculate though, I think the YW mellows out the acidity some. Not necessarily because it impacts the LAB, but because it shortens the bulk time. Plus, I have to believe the wild yeast impart their own flavor into the bread, so I would think it would have a broader range of flavor versus SD only. Not sure how YW impacts crumb texture and chew.
Like I said, I've always thought about doing the side-by-side comparison, but life and other baking curiosities always get in the way. Maybe I can add that to my 6-hour and 12-hour refresh experiment and add a YW to it.
As far as YW in the starter... Good question. It seems like you would shift the ratio towards yeast. I'm assuming the yeast in a YW would be able to survive in a SD culture. I think the starter would likely mature faster but at a higher pH.
Troy, that would be a great experiment to write up here! I'd love to see what adding YW does.
Dan, From your comment about handling after the 16hr of bulk, I take it that the dough should have enough remaining lift to rise again after shaping.
How long should I expect that second rise to take?
Is sourness increasing during that time?
The one thing that isn’t mentioned in the Brot and Taylor articles for making a less sour bread is one that I have posted a lot about lately, making a stiff sweet levain. The osmotic pressure from the sugar along with the low hydration both stress the LAB more than the yeast. As a result using this type of levain to leaven a dough makes a bread that is distinctly less sour in flavour. Unfortunately I cannot measure TTA however, I can compare pH and flavour of similar loaves made with a stiff sweet levain vs a 100% hydration levain and the flavour and pH profiles are hugely different. A 100% spelt sourdough showed a total pH drop of only 0.67 at the time of bake and was well fermented. It had no discernible tang to me whatsoever. The same bread made with a 100% hydration levain or even a stiff levain would have had a total pH drop of 1.3 and would have a sour tang to it.
Not having used a LM or made panettone, I think there is some similarity in the idea of the stiff sweet levain and a LM so this idea is well accepted.
I’ve used the stiff sweet levain to bake enriched breads as well as lean breads. I should say that the final bread will not taste sweet unless you sweeten the dough despite the sugar in the levain.
Benny
I still need to try this….
Hi Benny, think it might be the sugar that is the trick and not how stiff the levain is, although I guess it all works together.
The modernist guys did some research comparing stiffness of preferments and found it didn't matter all that much if you compensated for it. Think this is the link: https://modernistbread.com/are-biga-poolish-and-sponge-interchangeable
-Jon
Thanks Jon for pointing out that article and in the end you might be right that it is the osmotic pressure of the sugar that exerts the greatest effect. However, the article only looked at commercial yeast preferments and didn’t look at sourdough preferments at different hydrations so it doesn’t really impart important knowledge regarding the hydration and sourness in sourdough levains. That is assuming I didn’t misread it and missed something important.
Benny
Sorry Benny, I must have misread, or misheard something from a Francisco Migoya interview.
Obviously it gets more complicated with sourdough cultures, where acidity needs to be taken into account.
Hi Benny,
I found this in Daniel Leader's "Local Bread" book: Do you think this has merit?
Local Breads – Daniel Leader, page 43.
Liquid levain. This is a relatively new kind of sourdough, a batterlike culture made from wheat flour and water that is easy to mix and easy to measure out. It has gained in popularity in France because it ferments more easily and is easier to mix and measure out than stiff dough levain. Liquid levain has a fruity taste and a light, bubbly feel all over your tongue. It is mildly and immediately sour.
Stiff/dough levain. This very firm sourdough is the traditional French bread starter. It ferments very slowly, a plus for French bakers who abhor overly sour bread and want to limit the production of acids in their sourdough. In contrast to liquid levain, stiff dough levain is mild but earthy and not as light on your tongue. Its flavor is richer and darker and develops slowly in your mouth.
Hi Gavin, what Daniel writes fits with what my understanding is. High hydration levain will produce more acids than a low hydration levain. Now there must be sufficiently low hydration in order to see this effect, that level of low hydration needed I do not know.
This approach seems to treat prefermented dough as a black box (ie. we don't know what's inside, so we apply inputs and measure outputs and guess at cause and effect.)
But we know what the composition of prefermented dough is in terms of living matter (eg. yeasts, bacteria), non-living matter (eg. starches, sugars, enzymes) and biological processes of their interactions (eg. transforming inputs into outputs and changing the ecosystem, with those changes creating new inputs-- e.g. how starters come to life based on the interactions of yeast, lactobacillus, starches, enzymes, and other bacteria)
So I'm curious why we wouldn't just define the ecosystem, then use the known processes of the ecosystem to explain perceptions of harsh and soft sour. Then we could apply any number of manipulations of the prefermented dough to achieve desired ends (ie. I expect that if speed of fermentation affects sour, then there are many ways to impact speed including amount of PFF, amount of free sugars, amount of enzymes converting starches to sugars; amount of water available to activate the enzymes, temperature which affects speed of living creatures processing inputs, etc.)
We had a discussion (with Doc Dough) somewhere here about the possibility of creating a mathematical model for sourdough fermentation. It's very tricky. There is a lot of parameters that remain unknown to us (from what I remember, we couldn't find the quantification of how acidity and other environmental factors affect growth rate of microbes in a starter), although a lot have been measured in the lab environment with defined strains. And I think with such a non-linear system, without actual mathematical models with rather carefully measured parameters the predictions could go either way. Just thinking about how amount of prefermented flour would affect the final acidity of the dough and bread - really not obvious from just knowing the general principles.