Very little oven spring with change in flour
I am trying to figure out why I get almost no oven spring with one type of flour, and great oven spring with another. The recipe I've been following is the whole wheat sourdough from Tartine.
Whole wheat flour: 70%
AP flour : 30%
water: 80%
starter 20%
salt 2%
The better looking loaf uses 'Robin Hood' for both the all purpose and whole wheat. It contains: Amylase, xylanase, ascrobic acid, L-Cysteine. I am unsure of the protein and ash content.
The second loaf uses 'Rogers', all purpose being 'Apex', and whole wheat fine. The AP flour has 12.6% protein and .40 ash. There are no additives other than the minerals required by law (niacin, iron etc...) The wohle wheat is 15.2% protein and 1.08 ash. It has added to it ascorbic acid and amylase.
Both flours use hard red spring wheat.
I make a levain the night before using about a 3:3:1 mix of half whole wheat and half all purpose flour. I mix all ingredients (no autolyse). Let it sit for an hour then do 4 stretch and folds 30 minutes apart. It will then bulk ferment for about an hour more for a total of 4 hours of bulk. Preshape, 30 minutes bench followed by 2.5 hours of proofing. The dough sits at around 75F for the duration of the fermentation. I bake it in a dutch oven for 25 minutes with lid 20 minutes without at 450F. (I used Robin hood flour)
After doing more research into the different additives, I think the loaf using the Rogers will require a longer fermentation as it doesn't have as much enzymes that will increase the fermentation. Am I correct?
Not much helpful info about the flours to compare them. You mention two kinds of flour but only two brands of 1 unspecified flour? And name only one brand, And give only protein and ash for one brand of one flour.
Higher ash = signal of more bran = more chance of damaging gluten during shaping and rising. If the two brands are for the whole wheat, this might be your issue. You can sift bran, soak bran, soak the whole wheat, autolyse the whole wheat, etc to soften it up.
I don't have info on the Robin Hood flour, I can't find any. The other is Big White from rogers. https://rogersfoods.com/shop/commercial-products/white-flours/big-white/. The whole wheat is also from Rogers but I have no info on it, as it's not on their web site.
Someone may swoop in to correct me, but proteins are gluten potential rather than gluten itself. The process of adding water and manipulating dough creates the gluten by combining certain proteins. So refer to my previous note about bran as a problem in that process.
I will try soaking the whole wheat. However I get similar results when I just use the bread flour.
A bit confusing. Bread flour wasn't previously mentioned, just AP and WW. Some more clarity of the product names, flour types, etc. would help people help you.
Only commenting on protein %.
The real concern isn't so much the %. The quality of it is - quality as in the strength of the gluten. The stronger it is, the less it will break down in suboptimal conditions. Grain used determines this. Enjoy!
Welcome back to TFL.
Sorry that this is kinda long. I tend to over-explain. But I also try to "cover all the bases" to bring up all the possibilities without having to spend 5 days with back-and-forth questions and clarifications.
It could also be the oven. The second loaf has a much darker top, hinting/indicating that that oven has an upper heating element directly exposed (ie, radiant heat) to the loaf, whereas the first loaf was covered in a dutch oven during the oven spring phase. The radiant heat from the upper element may have set the crust, and prevented full oven spring.
Also possible: the two ovens are calibrated to different temperatures.
In order to properly compare the two flours, you must bake them in the same oven.
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Next point: You call the second oven "steam injected". It's possible that you may not have injected steam long enough to match the amount of steam "naturally" retained in the dutch oven that was used in the first oven. Or, perhaps the second oven is not designed to contain steam as efficiently as a dutch oven does.
A sufficient amount of steam, for the correct duration of time, can help prevent the upper heating elements from setting the crust too soon. Reference: Albacore's post at: https://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/69169/oven-spring-oven-top-heat
(You didn't say if this 2nd oven is a commercial deck oven, or a home oven with a built-in steam feature, or a regular home oven that has been modified to receive steam from an external source.)
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Happycat also keyed in on this: You're also unclear about _which flour from the first loaf_ was replaced by "high gluten" flour. Did you replace the 70% WW with "high gluten flour", or did you replace the 30% AP flour with "high gluten flour" ?
Did you change the percentages of WW and other flour?
Did you replace all the flour with high gluten flour?
Specificity. That is what is needed.
Instead of "telling a story/narrative" where we have to read back and forth between the original post and all your comments to figure out what you used, please edit your original post to give the exact recipes for both loaf "A" and loaf "B", with specific brands and flour types and percentages.
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Next point: What does this mean: "The levain I make for this is the same except again, different brands of flour and using a different starter." ???
If it is a different starter, and different flour, it is not the same levain.
Therefore, you changed 3 things at once: flour, starter, oven. To troubleshoot, change only one thing at a time.
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Next point: you're talking about a different oven, different flour, and a different starter, I'm also guessing that a completely different kitchen/location is involved. And that means different water. And perhaps a different altitude. (Big changes in altitude matter.)
Most people don't realize how big a difference a different water source can make: well water, municipal treated tap water, bottled "purified" water, and bottled "spring" water.
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Next point: Some brands/styles of AP/Bread/High-gluten flour have added amylase (or malted flour) and some don't. White/refined flour needs added amylase or malted flour in order to replace the starch-to-sugar enzymes that are lost when the bran is removed.
With some flour producers, it is the "organic" versions of white flour that do not have added amylase/malt. I learned this the hard way when I bought some organic AP flour before reading the ingredients list. (Arrowhead Mills in the US does not add amylase/malt to their organic AP.)
Check the ingredient lists of your white/refined (AP/Bread/HighGluten) flour.
Update: I enlarged the photo of the Rogers Big White, and could see "amylase" in the ingredients list.
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The bottom line is this: Not all brands and types of flour are interchangeable. At a minimum, it requires adjustments/tweaks when you change types of flour, or change brands of the same type, or even change types of ovens. At a minimum, you changed both type and brand.
WW definitely behaves differently than AP or bread flour. In small percentages it requires adjustments in hydration, yeast/levain amounts, and timings. In large percentages it requires a different recipe/formula.
Switching from AP to Bread flour also requires adjustments. High gluten flour is also different enough from bread flour to require adjustments. Going from AP to high gluten would be an even bigger adjustment.
Good luck, amigo.
Thanks for the detailed reply, I appreciate the time you put into it. I updated my post, I also changed the title since I can't know if it's higher protein or not.
"In order to properly compare the two flours, you must bake them in the same oven."
I have tried both recipes (different flours) in each oven and got similar results. The second oven is a commercial steam injected deck oven. Since I am only baking one loaf, I imagine I need to use a lot of steam. However I did try the loaf using Robin Hood flour in the deck oven and I got very nice oven spring.
I do use different starters for each loaf, which is obviously going to make a difference, I need to try switching the starters to see what kind of difference that makes.
I also looked at the ingredients for the different flours and found that the Robin Hood flours both had amylase added to it, while the apex flour did not. Since then I increased the bulk fermentation time for the rogers flour loaves by 2 hours and got more oven spring.
Diastatic malt is an option for (non-fresh milled whole grain) flours with no enzymes added to increase the amount of sugar available for yeast, improve extensibility, rise, browning.
Robin Hood web site: https://www.robinhood.ca/
If you could link to the AP and bread flour you are using.
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Also, at https://rogersfoods.com/shop/commercial-products/white-flours/big-white/
It says "Hard red spring wheat". And clicking on "Specs" shows it is indeed 14% protein, and .62% ash.
Update: the photo of the bag does show amylase on the ingredients list.
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For Canada, 14% is a typical "bread flour". Whereas in the US, "bread flour" is usually around 12%.
The one with the higher ash content, also contains more enzymes and bran and could be speeding up fermentation. Maybe cutting back on the fermenting times will even things up a bit getting the loaf into the oven sooner to catch the oven spring wave.
Ash content tells you there are more minerals and ash left in the flour sample after it has been burned up in a test. The more whole grain in the flour, the higher the ash content. That also means it is heavier than white AP wheat flour. White fine sifted wheat flours generally will give the highest loaves with the most spring. Other flours fall in line with less volume. Combinations of white wheat flours with heavier flours (higher ash content) from wheat and other grains will often result in less volume. Volume isn't everything when you start comparing flavours. Too many of us were raised on fluffy white bread and think all loaves should have the same texture and volume.
Looking at the loaves, I'm reminded of beachballs or basketballs. Amazing lift on the shoulders! Ever roll off the cooling rack? Got an crumb shots?
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My only comment is both loaves look amazing. I genuinely don’t understand how you could want more oven spring. If I made such loaves I’d have a smug look in my face for a whole week 🤔.