Another Stab at S.F. Sourdough
I've decided to take another stab at S.F. sourdough, this time using a stiff starter and following the second of two recipes posted several years ago by Doc Dough:
My first task was to make a stiff sponge using some liquid starter I had stored in the refrigerator. The recipe calls for:
100 parts (first clear) flour (Hi-gluten)
46-52 parts water
so about 52% hydration.
The next step is:
Make up and hold 7-8 hrs. at 80°F
My improvised proofing box is thermostatically controlled, but there is no control over humidity. I placed my 52% hydration sponge in the proofer. The sponge was in a small howl covered with a kitchen towel. I came back 8 hours later and the sponge had dried out to a significant degree. There was a thick dry crust on the outside.
How can I prevent this crusting over? Are there humidity-controlled proofing boxes for the home baker or do I need to do something else?
In the past I've made sourdough using a liquid starter and the results were just OK, but the bread was never near sour enough. It was just medium sour. I'm trying again using a stiff starter and following more closely the recipe posted by Doc Dough.
In past experiments I've achieved a wonderfully sour replica of S.F. sourdough in flavor. In order to do this I've had to way overproof the dough. The dough turned to goo due to proteolysis of the gluten and the loaf was unacceptable. I baked the gooey, overproofed dough anyway and the flavor was definitely there.
Thank you.
One amazon.com user reports the following about the $195 Brod & Taylor proofing box:
The humidity comes from water in a tray that you set below the rising dough. You could leave the water tray empty. You can set a temperature, but no, you cannot set a percent humidity.
So if all it takes is a water tray inside the chamber, no point in spending $195. My improvised proofing box consists of an empty toaster over with an incandescent light bulb inside. The light bulb is plugged into a thermostatically-controlled switch which maintains a fairly constant temperature of 30° C (86° F). Don't laugh — it works.
Het Chris!
Use either a plastic shower cap or plastic stretch wrap to cover the bowl. The little tray in the Brod & Taylor doesn’t really do much, IMO.
Good to know that a tray of water doesn't do much, thank you.
I learned that the amount of water vapor released is proportional to the surface area of the water. I had an 8" x 8" baking dish which I put in the bottom of the (unplugged) toaster oven. It fit perfectly and I filled it with water. But you recommend sealing the bowl. It turns out I have a plastic lid for this bowl which fits and seals nicely, so I'm using that now. Of course a commercial bakery would use a purpose-built proofing box. They run between $1,000+ and $5,000+, so I'll stick with the plastic bowl and lid.
Doc Dough's post has two formulae which differ greatly in the amount of sponge used in the final dough and the final proofing time and temperature. I have a feeling the first recipe from Cereal Chemistry is in error, so I'm trying the second one in Tables I and II. Below are the proportions I've come up with for a small boule:
SPONGE
43 g flour - 100%
21.5 g water - 50%
Levain (50 - 100 parts previous sponge) or liquid levain
Total sponge weight - 64.5 g
Ferment for 10 hr at 80°F (27°C)
DOUGH
43 g flour, all-purpose - 100%
22 g water - 60%
64.5 g sponge - 100%
Total dough weight - 129.5 g
2.6 g salt - 2% - 1/2 tsp
Dough rests for 1 hr
Make up – approx. 1 hr
Proof 8 hr. 86°F (30° C)
Combined proofing/resting time (sponge and dough)
20 hours
Here in southern California I've been buying store-bought sourdough rather than baking my own which wasn't quite up to snuff. It's funny, but in the bay area the old-school sourdoughs had hard, crackly crusts. Here in southern California the good sourdoughs have soft crusts. I don't know what's up with that. I found a brand with pretty good flavor and store-bought saves me the muss and fuss of baking my own.
In San Francisco they have Boudin sourdough. The last time I tried it I detected a distinct vinegary taste, so I'm thinking they might be spiking their dough with vinegar, figuring the tourists on Fisherman's Wharf won't know the difference. I certainly do.
Does this mean that you have abandoned the lactic and acetic acid addition method that you had previously described?
I tried your method a couple of times but I never seem to have gotten it right.
Yes and no.
That was the subject of a USDA patent. It called for using acid whey for the lactic acid which can be obtained by straining plain yogurt, and adding white vinegar. The first time I tried it, the bread came out really sour. After that, I was never able to achieve the same degree of sourness. I could never figure out why. So I tried using commercial liquid lactic acid and it turned out better but it still doesn't knock your socks off with its sourness. Too much lactic acid results in a peculiar-tasting bread.
In the meantime, I found a sliced, soft-crust sourdough from the Old Town bakery in Rancho Cucamonga, CA. It is very much like the old Pioneer sourdough from Venice, CA. Right away you can smell the lactic acid aroma. It is available at our local markets and is wonderfully satisfying, and it's easier to purchase a loaf than to bake my own. It is not the same as Larraburu/Parisian/Colombo, etc. from San Francisco, but is a more than adequate substitute.
Having retired, I got to thinking about the SFSD formula which has been published in several places, including this board. I've been trying to figure out what the S.F. bakeries were doing to achieve the sourness they did that I wasn't doing.
Those old bakeries were baking 24/7. They rebuilt their sponge 3 times per day, every 8 hours. I bake only occasionally and there is no way I could maintain a sponge around the clock like that. There seems to be a cycle of 8 - 10 hours of proofing time each for the sponge and the dough and various rest periods, so I thought I would try that. The total of baking and resting comes to 20 hours for sponge and dough combined.
I have achieved great sourness with extended proofing but the dough invariably overproofs and turns to unworkable goo. The sponge-and-dough method divides the proofing into roughly 10 hours for the sponge and 10 hours for the dough, so I'm giving that a try.
I made up my sponge according to the following formula:
43 g flour - 100%
22 g water - 50% - 52%
1 tsp liquid levain
Ferment for 10 hr at 86°F (30°C) in a sealed container.
After 10 hours of fermentation in a sealed container (thanks, Danny!) the sponge had not dried out and there was no crusting over. The sponge was gooey and VERY, VERY sticky. I measured it onto a piece of parchment paper on a scale and scraped it into the mixer bowl. Next time I will measure it directly into the mixer bowl to avoid getting sticky sponge on my fingers as much as possible.
I mixed in the dough flour, salt and water and a dough ball was formed which was allowed to rest for one hour. It is now in my proofing box for the next 10 hours.
The flour was unbleached all-purpose except for the liquid levain which was made with clear flour. The liquid levain lives indefinitely in the refrigerator.
This whole effort was a bust.
Apparently my starter died while sitting in the fridge.
I've had it with starters. Back to the starterless recipe
You really need to be refreshing your starter on a weekly basis if you want to keep it healthy and active.
When was it last refreshed?
Lance
Way too long ago. I should have refreshed the liquid levain before this bake. There was a lot of hooch (alcohol) on top of the starter which I stirred in. The refreshment adds another 8 hours to the process.
I stirred in some first clear flour and it seems a lot healthier now, not the dark gray it was previously.
What was wrong with it?
The first time, I did it at 100 g of flour scale (used KA bread flour). I had trouble mixing in the IDY and the salt and ended up with a flattish little boule.
On subsequent tries, I dissolved the salt in a small amount of the total water and was also able to mix in the IDY better. The bread behaved normally, but the flavor was not very sour. I lived in the Bay Area 1984–1989 and had Acme, Semifreddi's, and Boudin SD breads, so I'm somewhat familiar with the flavor. Now I find the La Brea SD from the grocer to be passable.
I purchased some of the Mezzoni SD flavor powder and used it once, but I think the bread needed a greater quantity of the powder; it also was not sour enough. I know it has acids other than acetic and lactic, but I have seen journal articles that show that sometimes malic and fumaric acids, etc., are found in SD breads. The quantities are small but sometimes that can make the difference.
Have you thought about using malt vinegar instead of white? There might be some other flavor notes that might contribute.
The other thought I had might be to use the CLAS method championed by Yippee and others. I haven't made this starter yet, but it might be worth a try.
Otherwise, I like SD rye breads or whole grain breads that I make myself.
I re-read the USDA patent for sourdough production. The quantity of vinegar is much higher in the patent (7%; 7 g × 0.05 = 0.35 g) than in your recipe (1%; 1 g × 0.05 = 0.05 g). Also, the ratio of lactic/acetic acid is 17.6 in your recipe, but 1.6 in the patent. I assume that you are using 5% acidity vinegar and 88% lactic acid and I’m assuming the TA of the whey was only from lactic acid (25 g × 0.024 = 0.576 g). The lactic/acetic acid ratio found in the Cereal Chemistry article was 2.8 (dough) and 3.1 (bread).
Are my estimates from the patent correct?
Was there a reason not to use the higher levels of acids in your recipe?
I might try the method again using higher amount of acids. Do you use AP or bread flour? And does it make a difference?
Could you please post a link to the version of my recipe you are using? The numbers you gave in your post don't sound right.
Thank you.
This is the recipe that I followed:
https://visualhotbed.blogspot.com/p/blog-page_5.html
If you have a more current version, please let me know. I'm also going to try to calculate/estimate the acid content of the Larraburu SD based on the Galal, et al, Cereal Chem. article. I'm going to use the µeq/g data presented in Tables I and II.
Actually, you're not. I've sampled all of those and they're only remotely authentic. The old-school bakeries are long extinct. The gold standard was Larraburu but the bakery closed in 1976 largely due to mismanagement. Parisian was a close second. Colombo and Toscana were in Oakland. I grew up on the peninsula in the '60s and '70s. Those brands were on all the supermarket shelves during that era. My mother always kept a few loaves of Larraburu in the freezer.
Acme comes close but it's too mild. Boudin has a distinct vinegary taste. I'm thinking maybe they spike the dough with vinegar.
From a business standpoint, sourdough baking is inefficient due to the long proofing times involved. The workers are on the clock and idle while they wait for the dough to ferment. This is an incentive for bakeries to cut corners, cut proofing times and/or add souring agents so they can turn out more loaves per unit of time. It's all about $$$. I saw this happen with the Pioneer bakery here in soCal. I've sampled La Brea bakery's "sourdough" with a friend and we both agreed it had no flavor. My friend also grew up with the old-school SFSD's.
I'm going to try my recipe again after a hiatus from baking to see if I can find a reason why people don't have success with it. It works for me so why can't someone else duplicate it? After all, you're adding acids directly to the dough. The amount of vinegar in the recipe comes directly from the USDA lab and the amount of lactic acid was determined by me experimentally.
Malt vinegar is an interesting idea.
Was Boudin "faking it" already by the mid-1980s? I know it was long ago, but I don't remember their bread having a vinegary flavor. It had a more rounded sour that I would associate with lactic acid (often described as tart) rather than acetic acid (sour). I also vaguely remember having some Boudin SD when visiting family in the area in the early 1970s and I thought the 1980s version was similar.
With any SD process you simply can't expect to achieve the same result in one hit. All processes are cyclical and that is what matters. Chemical properties will shift as will the microflora as the repetition takes place.
I would opt to seed the next run with your leavened dough as the instructions alluded was an option and bake daily, see where things end up after several days...
I.e. Seed the next sponge with the previous days leavened dough.
Hi Michael -
Not a bad idea, but baking every day is not a practical option for me, and I don't want to discard a lot of starter every day.
I'm going to revisit the lactic-acid-and-vinegar recipe. Whey is 0.58% lactic acid, so I figured out the correct proportion from the USDA patent.
Yeah, but you don't have to bake every day... A reserved piece of dough should last fairly well for several days in the refrigerator. I think such a process is workable, and I think it might give some really good results too!
End of the day it is your time and I'll let you be the master of it. I must admit I am curious as to what the result would be and such information would be a valuable contribution to community..
In regards to first paragraph - the method is more than workable - it happens to be the best and easiest way. If you're baking on an at least semi regular basis - it's even better! And what is this discard I hear about. Enjoy!
Which first paragraph are you referring to?
C above
Wow, that recipe was way off. How did that happen? My apologies for any inconvenience. No wonder you didn't taste any sourness! Anyway, I've updated it:
https://visualhotbed.blogspot.com/p/blog-page_5.html
I used the USDA baker's percentages from their patent. I looked up the amount of lactic acid in acid whey (0.58%) and calculated the amount of 88% liquid lactic acid to use: 0.24 grams, so you will need a precise scale. This works out to 5 - 6 drops from an eyedropper.
NOTE: I have not test-baked this yet so I can't vouch for it yet. Also, let it cool completely.
A further complication: doctor says no salt so I used salt substitute (potassium chloride). Salt substitute is good for a lot of things but bread baking isn't one of them. You need real salt. I'm off to pick up some real (non-iodized) salt and do a test bake. Fortunately I won't have to proof it for 20 hours.
Your current recipe does have the patent quantity of vinegar, but the amount of lactic acid seems too low. It now has significantly more acetic acid (0.35%BP) than lactic acid (0.14%BP). You had noted that the Larraburu bread had a more lactic acid-forward flavor.
Unfortunately, the patent is not completely clear about the quantity of LA, specifically the 2.4% TA in the whey. Does this mean 2.4 g acid per 100 g whey? That corresponds to an LA/AA ratio of 1.7 in the dough.
This is where it gets complicated. Galal, et al, found an LA/AA ratio of 2.8 in the Larraburu dough. The TTA for the dough was 145 µeq/g dry weight; I estimate this would be 1.0–1.3%BP TTA.
Using the 2.8 ratio and the USDA %AA, that would correspond to 0.98%BP (0.35% AA × 2.8 = 0.98%) for LA on a weight basis (TTA = 1.33%BP).
It is also possible that the Galal ratio is based on the ratio µeq of acid. Using that TTA and the ratio of LA/AA, I estimate that the LA amount would be 0.91%BP and the AA amount would be 0.22%BP (TTA = 1.13%BP). I can show my calculations if you’re interested, but I believe my estimates are in line with the Larraburu dough.
I think it could be interesting to compare four possible recipes:
P.S. I have been replacing 25–40% of the salt in bread recipes with NoSalt and I haven't noticed any off flavor.
Are you basing your calculations on the amount of whey in the recipe? I went by whey content of 0.58% lactic acid. The lactic acid liquid is 88% L.A. and 12% water.
www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0022030215003094
As I said, the first time I made the USDA patent recipe it hit the bullseye. Subsequent bakes did not. I'm guessing this is due to variability in the whey?
Does "as written" refer to the patent document or to my blog page?
Please give quantities of 50 grain white vinegar.
I am using NaCl only for this recipe to eliminate the use of KCl as a variable.
Patent document:
https://patents.google.com/patent/US3826850A/en?oq=US+3826850A
I’m sorry I didn’t convert the pure acids to the dilute solutions. That would be more useful in practice. Here are the corrected values as baker’s percentages:
Note that the lactic acid content listed in Table I of the Journal of Dairy Science article is from the acid whey of cream cheese production. The acid whey from yogurt may have higher LA.
Actual image scans of US patents can be viewed at uspto.gov. I find it easier than reading the way Google displays them. I read many chemical industry patents as a research/production chemist.
Thanks for doing that.
For convenience I have numbered them as follows.
#1 0.16% Lactic acid solution (88%)
7% vinegar (5% or 50 grain) [Your recipe as per blog page hyperlink]
#2 0.68% Lactic acid solution (88%)
7% vinegar (5% or 50 grain) [USDA patent estimated]
#3 1.11% Lactic acid solution (88%)
7% vinegar (5% or 50 grain) [USDA-Galal hybrid estimated]
#4 1.03% Lactic acid solution (88%)
4.4% vinegar (5% or 50 grain) [Galal-Larraburu dough estimated]
I will start by baking #2 later today.
I had to modify the USDA recipe, #2 above.
It calls for 35 BP water + 25 BP whey + 7 BP vinegar. This results in 67% hydration.
Following recipe #2 above using 35 BP water, the dough did not come together in the mixer. I had to add more water. The lack of 25 BP whey resulted in the dough being too dry.
Proposed is
59 BP water
0.68 BP lactic acid liquid, 12% water
7 BP white vinegar
For a total of 66.68% hydration.
Thanks for the update on the hydration. The patent states that the whey is 28% total solids; that works out to a 60% hydration, but I think the higher hydration makes it easier to mix the dough.
I look forward to your result and evaluation of the flavor and how it compares with the Larraburu bread. I might have some time in the next couple of days to try one or more of the recipes.
The S.F. SD recipes I've seen are around 59% - 60%, so that works out perfectly.
A recipe #2 loaf just came out of the oven, but I want to make it again with the higher hydration and let the dough mix better. I let the dough "proof" for 3 hours at 37° C (98.6° F). In the past I have let it proof for a much shorter time. I wonder if that's why I wasn't getting the flavor I expected. I don't understand why these loaves need to proof at all because we're not cultivating a colony of microbes and nothing is fermenting. Any ideas?
I must let this loaf cool completely before digging in.
Well, recipe #2 definitely has flavor, but it's a bit heavy on the vinegar flavor. I plan to deal with this not by cutting back on the vinegar because that is canonical per the USDA recipe. It's the lactic acid we're trying to zero in on because we're not using whey.
Next I'm going to bake recipe #3 because it has the most lactic acid and that will hopefully counteract the strong vinegar flavor.
I just mixed up recipe #3 with the higher hydration (59 BP). The dough came together nicely in the mixer bowl and formed a nice dough ball. I'm going to let the dough "rest" for one hour before proofing for 3 hours.
I may be able to try Recipe #4 tomorrow.
How much does the loaf rise during the 3 hour proof? It's not over-proofed?
The loaf rises a little and does not overproof.
I made a loaf using Recipe #4 amounts and the straight dough method. The dough was kneaded by hand for about 8 min after adding the acids. Proofed for 3.5 h. Baked for 10 min at 450 °F with steam and for 25 min at 400 °F. The bread cooled for ≈3 h before slicing. The sour is noticeable but not that strong. The crumb was dense and moist and the crust never browned.
I started another Recipe #4 this time using the sponge and dough method. I mixed half the flour and the diastatic malt at 70% hydration and it is now at 80–85 °F. I’ll report the results later.
Do you have any results for Recipe #3?
I baked recipe #3 and let it cool.
The crumb was dense. The crust was crispy but a little bit pale. There was pronounced sourness with a very subtle "chemical" character to the flavor. The added lactic acid seems to have counteracted the strong vinegar taste of the previous bake. I don't know if the "chemical" characteristic is due to an incorrect balance of acids or the fact that we are not using whey or if it is simply the nature of what we are doing by not using a traditional starter. The bread was quick to dry out sitting on my counter.
We haven't hit pay dirt yet. I have a loaf proofing now with a traditional sponge starter. I'm going to give it 8 hours of proofing time at 86 deg. F
I am very interested in hearing your impressions of recipe #4.
The bread form the Recipe #4 sponge and dough tasted better than the straight dough. I found it difficult to develop the gluten even after kneading for 8 min. The crust was pale and the crumb was moist and dense. I think the addition of the acids at this level affects the behavior of the dough
The patent states that an advantage of using whey is the buffering capacity it provides to the dough. The TTA can be fairly high but the pH is maintained higher (4.5) through the use of the whey. I think the problem we're having is that the dough pH may be too low and it negatively affects the outcome. I did not think to measure the pH of the dough.
It also notes that sweet whey can be used with added acids. This might be a better way to control the TTA and pH. Your initial results from several years ago using whey from yogurt were promising but hard to reproduce, IIRC. I might get some Bob's Red Mill whey powder and revisit the process. Thoughts?
Interesting observations about the use of whey. Indeed, we are straying from the patent and that may well have something to do with the disappointing results we're having.
My inability to reproduce my original results may be due to my scrimping on the proofing time and temperature, i.e. the desire for "instant" sourdough. I don't understand the necessity for 3 hours of proofing when we're not cultivating a colony of microbes, but if that's what it takes then so be it.
Maybe the thing to do is to get some plain non-Greek yogurt and strain it. It never occurred to me to freeze the unused whey for use at a future time, but that's something to try.
Next will be to use whey and vinegar AND 3 hours of proofing at the recommended temperature, just like the patent says. Anyway, it was kind of tedious measuring that tiny amount of liquid lactic acid.
My proofing box is an unused toaster oven with a 25-watt incandescent light bulb inside, controlled by a thermostatic switch. It works well.
I have an American Weigh Scales scale that has a 2-kg capacity and 0.1 g readability. I use it all the time for bread baking. I also have a smaller capacity scale that has a 0.01 g readability that I can use.
I find that straining yogurt to get whey is too tedious and messy. I’ve only done it once or twice. I would rather weigh out the whey powder and the lactic acid. I don’t mind weighing out small quantities, but then I spent years in a chemistry lab weighing out mg quantities of materials.
The proofing time may not need to be that long, but I’m sure there are other flavor components that develop from the yeast fermentation.
I like the idea for the proofing box. I have some foam coolers that could be repurposed.
I think we have the same scale: American Weigh Scale, reads to 0.1 gram.
I spent for a KitchenAid mixer with a DC motor and I love it. Also a Wisco convection oven that heats the oven cavity like a hair dryer: a fan blowing air over a heating coil. It never burns the bottoms.
Are you going to use whey powder in conjunction with the lactic acid liquid or simply reconstitute whey powder? Reconstituting the powder sounds more convenient than straining yogurt.
Are you going to use Bob's Red Mill whey powder? It contains lecithin. I can't find the portions for reconstituting it as liquid whey.
This appears not to contain lecithin:
https://nuts.com/cookingbaking/powders/protein-powders/whey-protein-powder.html?gclid=Cj0KCQjwt-6LBhDlARIsAIPRQcKIgnioH4ubWkoIQDi0TwA0vAb4Sxdjuxrc3PzcJfxGNFN2bxcCGz8aAhxuEALw_wcB
It looks like acid whey is 93.5% water.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4375228/
I looked further at the BRM listing for the whey and it turns out that the BRM whey powder is not actually sweet dairy whey, but just whey protein. I should have realized that the protein powder does not contain the other components of whey. I don’t think the nuts.com whey is right, either. Bulkfoods.com, Olive Nation, and Amazon have sweet dairy whey.
When I get the whey, I will add lactic acid in the same amount that I estimated from the patent and the Galal, et al, article. The patent states that the acid whey is 28% solids so I was planning to make a 28 wt.% solution and acidify it with lactic acid.
Which whey powder are you going to get?
I picked up some plain yogurt and am going to strain it for the whey. I am then going to try the patent recipe again, proofing it exactly as directed in the patent: (at least) 3 hours at 98 F. I hope the proofing will bring out the sourness.
I don't find straining the whey to be that burdensome. I have a large-diameter strainer and a large-diameter (4 C) measuring cup. The strainer fits on top of the measuring cup and I invert the yogurt container into the strainer, walk away and come back to whey.
I'm ordering some sweet dairy whey for Bulkfoods.com. I found a couple other items that were interesting, including chopped rye. I am looking for sources of rye chops or coarse rye meal since NYBakers ceased selling retail. I'm using economy shipping so it may take a while. But it is in the Midwest, so maybe no more than a week.
I suppose I could try straining some yogurt but I usually buy Greek yogurt instead of regular.
Just a quick comment for this thread on whey. I have a little contraption I use almost weekly to strain regular yogurt to make it thicker, which is typically cheaper than Greek yogurt. You get the benefit of having the whey to use in other recipes and the nice, thick, creamy yogurt (like Greek yogurt) at a reduced cost. You can control how thick you like it by how long you leave the yogurt in the strainer. I'll leave the yogurt in for a few days too if I want to make something akin to cream cheese, which makes a great base for appetizers, spreads or even sauces (but is also delicious as a treat with nuts and honey). I've had this strainer forever and it works like a charm for the regular tubs of yogurt (32 oz.)-the whole thing goes in, barely. I'm usually not a big fan of using plastic near my food, but I figure it's a wash as to whether the yogurt/whey sits in the original plastic tub in my fridge or in the strainer for a day. However, the strainer part is mostly stainless steel. I transfer both into separate glass jars when it's done straining. I should add that this strainer is meant for regular or Greek yogurt. I don't think it would work well for runny yogurt. You should get a healthy cup or more of whey after straining is complete.
https://smile.amazon.com/Cuisipro-Yogurt-Cheese-Maker-Green/dp/B00TZLUIWU/ref=sr_1_26?dchild=1&keywords=yogurt%2Bstrainer&qid=1635779420&sr=8-26&th=1
Thank you for the info. Unfortunately, I don't need a large amount of whey. The King Arthur website says I'll probably get about 16 oz of whey from a quart of yogurt. I only a need a little for this recipe. I don't need liquid whey for anything else. I like the fact that the powdered sweet whey is shelf stable. What I really wanted to find was a source for powdered acid whey, but couldn't find one at the retail level.
Also, the cost of Greek yogurt is about the same if I don't use the strained whey. Plain yogurt is $1.95/quart and Greek yogurt is $3.69/quart at a local grocer. If half of the plain yogurt is whey, the Greek yogurt is slightly cheaper.
compost strainer. To separate the fluids out of the daily kitchen compost. Yes, they separate and pick up the liquids from the solids. We have similar kitchen compost containers here but no strainer. In China I just tied the yogurt up in a clean and ironed dish towel and hung it from a kitchen cabinet knob. A coffee filter in holder works too. Just don't turn on the coffee maker. :)
I let the plain yogurt strain overnight and got plenty of whey. The dough is proofing now. I have some unsweetened cocoa powder which I will use to make chocolate Greek yogurt with some sweetener.
Will let everyone know how the bread turns out. Save your whey in case this recipe turns out well.
Why are you looking for rye?
Many of the recipes I've been exploring for rye breads require rye meal (fine, medium, or coarse). Fine rye meal is essentially "pumpernickel" flour and easy to to find, but the medium and coarse meals are very difficult to find now that NYBakers has ceased selling retail.
I actually seldom bake all white flour breads, but every once in a while I might like an SFSD loaf. That's why this method interests me as it seems shorter than the usual process. I'm also a retired synthetic chemist, so the experimentation aspect is a bonus.
One part of the patent puzzles me. The acid whey is listed at 28% solids, but compositions of acid whey I have seen indicate that the solids content is more like 5% (2.5–6.5% range; Cornell Fact Sheet #96). I wonder if the acid whey that was used in the patent had been concentrated.
I don't throw away any starter, I just add it to another container in the fridge, then when I have enough, or when the want arises, I mix it with eggs, and plain flour, and make a batter mix, and cook pancakes. SD pancakes the kids love, and it's an easy way to get them to eat eggs.
I received my sweet dairy whey and tried the USDA patent again using the sponge and dough method. The amounts of acid I used were almost the same as the last loaf. Because the sweet whey has some lactic acid in it, I adjusted down the lactic acid content.
The dough did not seem as odd as the last one, but I still had trouble getting a windowpane with kneading. I also tried to measure the pH of the dough using some narrow-range pH paper. I pulled off ≈5 g of dough and mixed it in 10–15 mL of distilled water; the mixture was pH 4.0–4.5. I let the dough proof for about an hour. It did not rise much even at 85 °F. Baked for 10 min at 450 °F with steam and at 400 °F without steam for 15–20 min.
The crust was still pale and the crumb was dense. The flavor was OK but I still not sure that it approximates SFSD.
I gave the USDA recipe another try the other day. This time I did the following differently per the USDA recipe.:
1. Used active dry yeast instead of instant dry yeast. The yeast was rehydrated in water.
2. Proofed the dough for 4 hours at 98 F.
I followed the USDA recipe to the letter.
The finished loaf wasn't very sour. This experiment was a failure as far as I'm concerned. I don't know what else to try.
I can easily replicate the flavor of ofd-school SFSD with a traditional starter by letting the dough way overproof on the order of 24 hours, so it is achievable. Of course I do not get an acceptable loaf as the dough has turned to goo.
The sourdough factories of yore kept a stiff starter going continuously which they refreshed every 8 hours. This is well documented. They were baking 24/7. As a casual, occasional baker I can't follow this schedule. I would wind up with too much starter which I would then have to discard.
That's too bad that nothing has worked out. I haven't tried any other variations since my last effort. Here are a couple more thoughts I had to increase acidity:
I've been baking a bunch of rye breads lately, but may revisit this.
I'm not sure if this helps or dilutes the topic, but I've spent a lot of time trying to reverse-engineer sourdough I had in my youth as well, and I did come up with a method that works for me. The final complication was that I had to make it gluten-free, but I have done that as well and the method is the same either way. If I weren't GF, maybe it would have been no problem because I have the recipe for white wheat bread, and I watched my dad make it every weekend growing up for years.
The recipe came from some farmers down the country road where my dad grew up. I think the recipe got typed up and shared sometime between the 50's and the 80's. There are some very 1950's things about it like using baking soda, which I ignore. Actually I did try that at least once but it dampens the acidity, not what I was looking for. The recipe comes from the List Family in Washoe Valley, Nevada. So it's not a SF SD, but it's in that style, and it can be made VERY tart.
The method is roughly this:
Step 1: Mix flour, water, salt and mature liquid sourdough starter to form a shaggy dough. The innoculation percentage can be anywhere from 5%-20% depending on how fast it ferments and what result you're going for. Let it rest overnight, preferably at a coolish temp, say 55-67°f for 12-18 hours or until doubled. I usually keep monitoring it for acid level - I taste a little bit but I suppose I should say use a ph meter. When it gets to the level of acidity I want, I move on to the next step, which is crucial for making sure it doesn't dissolve into goo as you have noted in your 24 hour trials.
Step 2: (Wheat method) Turn the dough out onto a floured bench. Incorporate a good amount flour as you knead, 10-20% of total flour, about 8 minutes, to make a smooth elastic dough that's fairly low hydration, maybe 60% or less. My dad just did this by feel.
Shape and let rise between 1 and 4 hours, depending on conditions. I think it doubles for wheat dough, but I guess if you get the hydration too low or it's too acidic it might not fully double. Don't overproof this stage, better to underproof a little on the second rise than overproof.
The original baking directions were for high altitude, so I don't know if they need to be modified. It says: "Bake at 400 for 45 minutes. Water in oven makes crisp french type crust."
Of course you could do a dutch oven or whatever your usual steam method is for the first 15-25 minutes.
Incorporating a decent amount of flour in the second rise and developing the gluten at that second stage are what I think help keep the dough strong enough to ferment that long. I've done 24 hours.
The gluten-free version is about 60% whole grains, but I believe my dad used unbleached AP flour. Based on some things I've read recently, maybe a flour high in protein would buffer the acid better, helping prevent the dissolving issue. In GF bread, it's the starches that don't hold up to the acid load, thus my conversion of the recipe to partly/mostly whole grains. There isn't really a refined GF grain with the protein content of white wheat flour, but some whole grains have a decent amount of protein in them. My flour blend is 40-44% starch but it holds up to a 24-hour ferment and results in a pretty tart loaf. I use psyllium husk as a binder and that also helps buffer the acid I think (because it's a fiber).
I can get a pretty acidic loaf using just water and a starter that's very mature, but here are some hacks for more acidity:
- Feed starter with half milk, half water. I haven't tried this yet but I think my dad did this, at least sometimes.
- Make the bread with half milk, half water. I made a loaf with all milk, and it was way too sour!
This is a shot of my GF version. A wheat loaf will have a more open crumb, just a little really:
Gina
That is an amazingly open crumb for a GF bread! I know that I see occasional requests for GF breads here. Would you be willing to start a new thread by posting your formula and techniques? It would serve as a useful reference for future requests.
Paul
👍👍👍
Yippee
Yippee, what are your thoughts on using CLAS to create an extra sour SFSD? Is it possible to use a much larger quantity of CLAS to boost the sour flavor of the bread?
Thanks!
because my family does not like sour bread.
Maybe you can check with the FLAS baker to see if his/her bread is sour. He/she uses a lot of FLAS in his/her recipe.
Yippee
P.S. Once I made a very sour German rye with Monheim's sourdough, but it was not SFSD. Rus showed me how to make the same bread with CLAS. In order to follow his recipe, since I don't buy rye flour anymore, I have to sift my own flour. I'm just too lazy to do that.
Hi, Alco:
Please see Mariana's suggestions here:
https://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/69903/sourwort-bread#comment-503818
Yippee
Hi Paul,
Thank you! Some very kind people here on TFL helped me develop my first GF sourdough recipes, which I then published on my blog. The recipe can be found here: https://glutenfreegourmand.blogspot.com/2014/03/gf-24-hour-sourdough-bread-recipe.html
I have a hard time transferring the formatting when I post here on TFL, so I hope it's not too much of a faux pas to link to my blog instead. This was developed and published way back in 2013 when there were hardly any GF sourdough recipes on the internet, so it took some doing. Now when I look at the photos they look a little overproofed. Also I've developed a blend of flours that has a much whiter appearance, giving the loaf a more San Fransisco look. I haven't published my updated version yet, though I'm really excited about it and I think it tastes amazing. I also think I'm getting a bit better crumb due to not overproofing and having a few extra tricks up my sleeve.
Thanks,
Gina
The link worked for me. Formatting here is, indeed, difficult. What I have done with some Excel info is to take a screenshot and paste it in as a picture.
Your loaf does look amazing for GF. I haven't baked GF, but I have with high% rye, and that is difficult enough to get results like you have (and I haven't, yet). I like your ideas for creating more sour SFSD. If I can tear myself away from rye recipes, I will give it a try.
You really should create a new thread like Paul suggested because this thread will not attract the GF members.
Alcophile, I am also working on a GF mock-rye bread recipe. I've been looking around on here for real rye recipes for inspiration. It's been so long since I've eaten real rye it's hard to know if I'm really getting close, but I've been enjoying the results nonetheless.
I've been meaning to post on here as an update of what I'm up to. I've been working on a number of GF recipes that I'm pretty excited about, but none is more exciting than my white San Fransisco Sourdough bread, which I love.
Gina
You could have fooled me, looks like rye. One thought I had to trick the taste buds would be to use traditional rye bread spices, like caraway, fennel, coriander, or anise. Some German breads use Brotgewürz, a mixture of these spices (toasted and ground). Poke around the German blogs (Brotdoc, Plötzblog, Brotpoet, Homebaking.at, etc.) for ideas.
Also, Plötzblog has an interesting all oat bread that could be GF with GF oats.
Hi Alco,
I thought the same thing, so I put caraway and coriander in the loaf. I made a post about it here: https://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/70037/glutenfree-pumpernickel-style-mockrye-bread
I haven't heard of an all oat loaf, I'll check that out!
Gina
As Alcophile notes, it's a bit obscure in this location. A brief post, with the link, in the Baking for Special Needs forum will be better positioned for someone hoping to find GF information.
Interesting to see that you use psyllium husk. I’ve only had a few experiments with GF baking and found psyllium husk to give a very good approximation of the texture and flexibility of wheat breads. It is still different in some ways but much more satisfying than using gums.
Thanks for your input.
Paul
Hi Paul,
Yes, I've buried it I guess! I'll try to do an update soon. It's been too long.
It's good to hear that psyllium feels like a good approximation of gluten to those who actually eat gluten. Sometimes I need to get feedback from people who eat wheat because my sense of what is a normal texture is different now. I have a new normal. For a long time I think I was making breads too wet, because I was trying to avoid the dryness of GF bread. I've figured out how to make the bread more balanced now, and how to make it so it doesn't dry out so quickly. I've gone through stages of trying to reduce the psyllium as much as possible, but currently I'm experimenting with really high levels of binders. I find that psyllium can be incredibly flexible under the right circumstances and especially in sourdough where it has a long time to hydrate. It's definitely superior to gums. I also like the fact that it's a natural fiber.
Gina
I've actually tried using psyllium in wheat bread.
This was mostly because I've only got access to weaker flours and wanted to try them at a higher hydration. It changed the physics of the dough quite dramatically. Could make nice breads at 85% hydration, but still haven't perfected it enough to say that overall for wheat breads you can come out with something better. Maybe though...
Hi JonJ,
There's a patent for incorporating psyllium into breads to boost the fiber content. It suggests that up to 14% psyllium is great for improving the healthfulness of the bread without compromising texture. There's also a formula for how much to adjust the hydration to compensate for the psyllium addition. I personally find that 4.4-6.6% is sufficient to bind bread, depending on the form of the psyllium and the other flours that comprise the bread (all gluten free in my case). Some recipes go up to 7.7% which is considered pretty high. The few sourdough recipes I tried at this percentage were very flexible and soft. Here's the patent: https://patents.google.com/patent/US20070264405A1/en
Please start a separate thread in that section to discuss your GF psyllium-seed bread instead of threadjacking this one about SFSD.
Thank you.
I keep some liquid levain in the fridge. The levain is made with first clear flour.
Today I'm making yet another attempt at sourdough with starter. Here is the recipe:
Dough
Flour: 100 g
Water: 60 g
Liquid levain: 4 g
Salt: 1/2 tsp
I intend to let this proof for 18 hours at 30° C. We'll see if any dough degradation takes place.
I had been making a passable faux sourdough using lactic acid powder from a company called "Druids Grove".
Then, suddenly, Druids Grove lactic acid powder became unavailable. I emailed Druids Grove and was told that the lactic acid powder had been discontinued.
Fast forward to today and look what I found on amazon!
https://www.amazon.com/Druids-Grove-Non-GMO-Gluten-Free-Certified/dp/B01936PVS2/ref=asc_df_B01936PVS2/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=312155073561&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=3772737882986660881&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9030961&hvtargid=pla-571549995308&psc=1#customerReviews
Druids Grove has an amazon "store" with powdered carrageenan and lecithin in addition to lactic acid powder.
I had tried using liquid lactic acid as a substitute, but the flavor wasn't "right". It had kind of a chemical flavor.
Now I have to order some lactic-acid powder in my never-ending quest for SFSD, and I have to modify my recipe for powder instead of liquid: