August 7, 2021 - 9:57am
Building new Recipies
So I think I have my Sourdough formula perfected. Here is the question. If I want to branch it out and start adding some mix-ins...herbs, cheese. meats, fruits, etc. How do I know how much. All of you seem to have figured it out and i m at a loss to know where to even start
I usually start around 10%, and depending on the inclusion might go higher (e.g. seeds are relatively light and can be used in higher quantities). That's a rough idea, really you have to try and see if you like it, or want more flavour, or more light texture (any inclusion will generally make the bread less light and airy).
Another good idea is to look for similar recipes with the same inclusions and see how much they use, and start there.
I usually do the following as a guideline. Inclusions like dried fruit, nuts usually 10-20%
Herbs usually 0.5-1%
around 10-20% of dry ingredients. Of course, that ends up higher once it is soaked if I’m maki g s soaker or a porridge. Have fun with it. I’m one that throws just about everything in but the kitchen sink. Even if it doesn’t turn out in terms of oven spring, it will still taste good thinly sliced and toasted.
Throw in whatever amount of whatever ya like, see what happens. That's the formula. Enjoy!
The comments above are great advice. I always start with one of my standard recipes and adjust from there. Start with small additions and go up as you get a feel for how it reacts in the recipe. I have a ton of recipes posted here and on my blog mookielovesbread.Wordpress.com. You can feel free to use some of my formulas as a starting point.
have fun!
Ian
Hi Craig,
I am actually in the process of planning a fruit bread, having not made one in a fair while so this topic is on my mind.
The guide already provided of 10% is a good place to start.
To add my own commentary, as with much to do with baking (and everything in which I am involved,) there is a longer answer, too.
The first thing I would add is that the 10% figure would be rather too much if you are adding a strong herb, like rosemary or a 'spice' like chilli flakes or peppercorns. That would be quite some . . . taste!. For something that is light and packs a good flavour hit, like herbs and larger spice pieces - especially dried and/or woody herbs - honestly, the answer is to use your normal cooking intuition and just eyeball it.
That's a fairly special case, however.
More usefully (hopefully,) you can break down your mix-ins into three main categories. Note, that, for clarity, 'mix ins' are things that will, generally sit as distinct pieces/pockets/layers/swirls in the finished bread and do not include ingredients that are designed to be incorporated into the dough. The latter group would include things like cocoa powder or beer or porridge/polenta/etc . . . - this last one being distinct from adding the base grain (like oats), which I would consider an 'add in', generally.
For incorporations, that's a whole 'nother question as those will generally form part of the 'flour' component or the 'hydration' component (or both).
Anyway, the categories for mix-ins are:
Wet
These are things that are moist on their own and might be able to be 'juiced' or squeezed out. Examples are fresh fruit or olives (technically a fruit, of course,). These add-ins will release moisture into the dough, making it wetter.
For these add-in, try adding a little less liquid to the main dough - perhaps as much as 5% (higher with larger quantities of mix ins, of course).
Dry
The opposite - ingredients that will absorb moisture from the dough, drying it out. Think dried fruit and many seeds and nuts, as well as any 'flakes', like oats. Some are voraciously thirsry, absorbing several times their own weight, like chia seeds.
As you would expect, you will need to compensate for this and the two methods are either increasing the liquid in the dough directly or pre-soaking the add-ins. For dried fruit, I recommend squeezing them out after soaking them, so you aren't adding much extra liquid. Depending on the ingredient, you can use that soaking liquid as part of the main dough, if you like.
Neutral
These are ingreadients that more-or-less neither give nor take moisture as they are inherently moist enough but aren't really moist to the touch or 'squeezable'. Things like meat and (most) cheeses fit in here.
Predictably, for these, you neither need to add nor reduce liquid in the main recipe. A benefit of that is that you have more leeway to add without compromising the general properties of the dough. If you were doing a loaf whith grated (rather than cubed,) cheddar, for example, you could fairly comfortably go to 20% and not really have any serious complications.
Method
That all said, almost as large a question as 'how much' is how. My general advice here is to first at least partially develop the gluten and then add your mix-ins at the 'folding' stage.
Exactly how that looks depends on your standard process, as I note you have a solid, go-to bread that you are basing this on.
For most mix-ins, two folds will be sufficient to incorporate, so long as you are doing stetch-and-folds. My recollection was that coil folds just didn't work as well and the ingredients would end up in the bottom of my proofing container! Your mileage may vary.
If you basic process involves a stand mixer to develop the gluten, followed by a long, uninterrupted bulk, I would recommend cutting the initial development a bit and then finishing development with folds to incorporate the extras.
For example, if you process is kneading for 10 minutes then leaving for 5 hours, I would suggest modifying it to:
You can then repeat if needed, depending on ingredient dispersion and gluten development.
If your process is 100% folds/slaps/whatever then add the mix-ins only after the first one or two rounds but do aim for at least two folds with the extras, which might mean adding an extra folds.
Oily ingredients
Be extra careful when dealing with anything noticeably oily. In this category, I would certainly add the semi-dried tomato and marinated goats' cheese I once tried. Sopping up the oil first is a good idea but, even then, oil will still leach into the dough. Fats inhibit gluten development so, if you are adding ingredients that will contribute fats, try adding them in as late as the pre-shaping, once everything is pretty close to where you want it to be.
Of course, added fats are great for some styles of breads, but no so much for a 'standard' artisan-style sourdough boule or batard.
Final advice
I can only speak for myself here but, when I am after bread with add-ins - whether home made or bought - I tend to want a denser loaf as I want to really get those flavours coming through with every bite. The more open the bread, the less that is going to happen so I view a denser, less open loaf not as a failure to be corrected (within reason!) but a natural and indeed welcome part of making this style of bread.
to the above post.
If you are using a mixer, I recommend putting everything in after the autolyse.
I traditionally put mine in at the end of 10 minutes of mixing and mixed enough just to distribute evenly. Then I did coil fold after that.
Then I read that Hammelman said it really did not make any difference whether you put the add-ins at the beginning or at the end. So I experimented. I did two batches of loaves my usual way, and two batches where I just put everything in after the autolyse and mixed for 10 minutes. All batches were done on speed two. Well, there was a significant difference in oven spring with the second method. I was quite surprised.
So iI’ve been using the second since. Oils incorporate easily and it’s easy to determine if extra water is needed. It is also faster when making 4 batches.
Just something to think about.
Perhaps I just have a tendency to go really heavy on the add-ins!
What I found (and it was a while ago that I made my last fruit bread) was that adding the fruit during the mix resulted in a lot of fruit bits poking out all-over the place, some of which fell out and others burned.
Amending that to fold them in via 'standard' stretch + fold steps wasn't perfect but did keep more of the mix ins . . . in!
I did buy rather a lot of dried fruit to add to my already over-provisioned cupboard so perhaps a comparison for myself is in order, though I am using stronger flour these days so that's bound to help right off the bat!
With only so much bench, fridge, oven and stomach space the ideas are backing up in the brain a little!
experiment. Scroll down to the comments.
https://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/67881/old-cheddar-pickled-jalapeño-and-chives-sourdough%C2%A0